Ellen Shapiro, Apollo's GraphQL SDK developer for iOS

Jeroen Leenarts: You are recording right? Yeah, I'm recording check this okay. Oh, yeah, let's press that button as well. And and, and I'm sitting here with like the the audio girl so to speak. Yeah. Okay, so welcome to another special with Ellen Shapiro LMI. We go back a little bit like two or three years maybe when she was working in Amsterdam, and she was visiting the CoCo hats and l meetups. So that's how Elena and I got to know each other, but I definitely know that there's much more to her story. So we're gonna dig into that. Hi, Ellen. Ellen Shapiro: Hi. Yeah, so you met me when I was living. I was actually living in Nigeria, which is over by the German border. And I was working in Amsterdam for a bucket of BEC, there Norwegian company that has offices in Amsterdam and Berlin as well. So so so I was coming up to Amsterdam for all the Koko Head stuff, you know, a lot, lots of conferences and stuff. The Netherlands is not that big a place. So like, I was going across the whole country to get to work. But that took like an hour and a half. I miss being there a lot. It was really a wonderful place to live. And my, my now wife and I gotten a fellowship at a university in in Nijmegen. And so we moved there. And yeah, it was really fun. And so like, where did it all start? So, so I in about 2010, I started learning how to program. I really, you know, I had done some like really, really, really basics, like literally basic stuff. Jeroen Leenarts: Basically, when I was like Microsoft BASIC, facial basic, Ellen Shapiro: ah, I actually don't really remember like, I, I know, I worked with Max, like, this is what I was really little kid like the there was, like, I was very lucky that I went to a school that had computer lab, even, you know, in the in the mid 80s, when that was not very common. And I definitely remember like, making little things show up on the screen. But like, I kind of just drifted away from that, you know, I've always, particularly when I was younger, I was much more into music. So I actually from when I was basically tagged until I was about probably 20 to 23 I was really excited about songwriting and singing. So I like I even put out an album and stuff. You know, it's very, it's funny, because I'm, I'm now almost 40 And like listening to stuff that I wrote was between the ages of like, 10 and 17. I'm like, Oh, God, I was, I was very much a teenager, wasn't I. But you know, I'm so proud of the music and stuff. But it really sort of that direction, took me away from technology that didn't involve audio for a long time. And, you know, I sort of joke that when I went to college, I was extremely lucky that my parents were able to to help me pay for college. And by helping I mean entirely pay for college. And you know, it's sort of one of those things where it's like, alright, we're not going to pay for college for you. If you go for music. Where are you going to do instead, I said, this will do will pay for anything except music. And I said, sweet, I'm going to film school. And they were like, oh, we should have been more specific. So I actually went to mostly focusing on audio recording for films and stuff like that. And I was like, did a lot of sound sound stuff when I was in film school? And yeah, it was, it was really fun. I kept doing music stuff on the side. And, you know, I got to, I got to do a lot of messing around with different audio tool sets, and like early versions of Perl tools, and like, you know, like, working with really early versions of like, Final Cut and stuff. And then, you know, one of the things I really I had a lot of fun doing was I built out a for like another class we did like a documentary, because like, everybody in my group was was film people. So we're like, oh, let's make a documentary. Because that's what happens when you put film people together. But yeah, it was really fun. And it's just like, I think I really like making stuff. And I think it was really, that creativity was really, really important to me. And then after that I moved out to Los Angeles, because that was what you did when you got a film degree from a place in Chicago. There was like it was I joked that there was like a caravan of like everybody in my graduating class moving out to LA. So I moved out to LA in 2003. Jeroen Leenarts: So basically you you did like basic in like when you were like a little girl just fiddling with with MAC's that were available on the school that you were attending. And then your parents, they basically said, Hey, Alan, we're gonna pay you through college. And then you said like, Hey, let's go in some direction that they were like, Oh, boy. Yeah. And Ellen Shapiro: yeah, it was sort of it went from you know, like the stuff that I was fiddling around with when I was a little kid. I don't like I remember playing with like HyperCard, a little bit in high school. But like, that's really kind of as far as that went. I did take one class that was like super basic HTML and CSS. And this is when like, CSS was a new concept. So like, people were just like, Oh, my God, you don't have to do everything in HTML. This is amazing. But like, yeah, it was definitely, like very, very basic level stuff. Jeroen Leenarts: But if you then so when you were really young, there was like, some interest in something software development related, then you went into audio? Not really. Ellen Shapiro: I mean, and that's the thing is like, I was in that class, because everybody took that class. Like, it wasn't something where like, when I was younger, I was all that interested in it. And then, you know, when I was out in LA, when I moved out to LA to work, you know, I initially tried to get jobs working in audio production, but like, timing was really messed up, and there wasn't anything available. So I just took the first internship I could get, which was, I was an intern at the Ellen DeGeneres Show, like six weeks after they went on the air. So that and it's now been on the air for almost for 17 years now. I think they're on they're, like, 18 season at this point, that was flat, and I was working my way, like, onto the bottom rung of the ladder there. And, you know, it was like, Hey, I'm actually getting paid to do stuff. That's, that's nice. I kind of went from step zero to step one there. I was always like, the one person who know how to hook up a Mac to like a networked printer, people would just come to me with like, with like, tech questions, and I just got better and better and better at googling the answers. It was fun. It was it was kind of fun to sort of have that as one of my, like, 17 half jobs. There was a point at which I was I was sort of like, Okay, do I want to just like go into like it where I'm just sort of dealing with, you know, setting up computers and stuff, or do I want to do I want to learn how to program. And I think, for me, the biggest thing was that learning to program offered an opportunity to be creative. Again, one of the reasons that I liked working in, in TV was that like, oh, I have this, this, this thing where I'm like, I'm part of this big creative endeavor. But like, the part that I was actually doing was mostly just like, making sure that purchase orders were signed, and making sure that like equipment showed up where it was supposed to be and like, go into the writers and be like, Hey, guys, the network's asking for the script, is that actually written or no, you know, and that part is less exciting from a creative standpoint. And I realized that to get to the part where I really had any creative influence, it was going to take several years of working for terrible people for terrible money. I kind of got to the point where I was like, why am I doing this to myself? You know, it's hard when you start something and you really enjoy it. And you're really just having a good time. You're really, like, even if there's stuff that's terrible, it's like, oh, that's not that bad. Because, you know, it's, it's something where you're still learning a ton. And that's absolutely what like the beginning of my career in television was like, I was really excited, even though I was getting paid absolutely, absolutely nothing. And you know, it was, you know, I had to do all sorts of silly things, because that's what you do on, you know, when you're when you're a peon in Hollywood, and, you know, I still had a really good time with it. And then, at a certain point, I realized that like that level of not having any kind of creative control over everything was really starting to bother me. Jeroen Leenarts: How do you then at some point, decide like, Oh, hey, maybe I should try coding him? Ellen Shapiro: Well, I mean, mostly, like I said, I sort of joke that I'm a developer now, because in 2003, I knew how to hook up a Mac to a network printer. But that's it. Right? It is. But I think it's something where it got me realizing that I had the skills to be able to work with some of this technical stuff that I think a lot of people are somewhat afraid of. And I think that like, sort of building up that, that confidence to sort of basically be an unofficial IT person everywhere I worked. I was like, Okay, I could be like an actual IT person. But I would rather do something creative. And that's, you know, and that's sort of where that, that that stepping stone came from, because I think that, you know, that that was really the process that I went through, it was like, sort of like, Oh, I could be an IT person. But I want to make stuff I guess I have to learn how to program. And you know, this this was also around when the first iPhones were coming out. So like the first iPhones came out in like 2007. And then the first SDK, I think, in 2008, Jeroen Leenarts: yeah, that was iOS three, I think on the iPhone, iOS three that they that you could actually develop. Before that there was just something with JavaScript I think. Ellen Shapiro: Yeah. It was when they first released it, like people were really mad because there weren't any apps. And then people just started building apps anyway. Like Eric is to dune wrote like entire books about like, here's how you jailbreak your phone and write apps, because screw it, I would rather do that. And so she's, she's been in that game for a long time. But then, so I went through a program at UCLA, which is University California, Los Angeles, they have this thing called the extension program, which is normally meant for people who are like, working full time jobs, and then they'd like to one or maybe two classes a week at night, I had did not have a job. So I said, Okay, I'm going to put this to 11. And I did what's normally a two to three year program, and six months. So, you know, I learned, you know, I think where it where I really started was just like, Here's what a for loop is. And, you know, I did, I went through a, like an iPhone programming class, you know, it was just really basic level stuff, you know, looking at a lot of stuff from like, the like the Big Nerd Ranch guide, and things like that. That's where I started to learn about some of the ways that you can sort of look stuff up. And that's like, through that I went to fighting Ray Wonderlic site back when Ray was actually still writing tutorials himself. And, yeah, it was really, it was really fun. And I think I just I got to the point where I was like, okay, like, I know that from sort of talking to people, I need to be able to, like, have something to show that shows that I can, like, do something halfway reasonable. And so I built, I built an app for iOS and for Android, because I've been doing both jobs, I had been doing both Android and iOS when I was doing that certificate program. And it was, you know, I've always, I've always found it interesting to sort of look at how sort of there's basically two different approaches to a very similar problem. In that, like, you have this, you know, little screen, and you have not that much RAM and not that much processing power, or at least you didn't at that point. And you know, either not that much battery or the world's largest battery. Jeroen Leenarts: For some reason, you were also the, the person that was able to like hook up the Mac's to the network, you said, and then you at some point decided, Okay, fair enough, I'm having a lot of fun, but I want to do something else, maybe something with it, but then you'd like to leave, I thought, Okay, I just want to be creative. I'm not, I'm not going to do the ATI stuff. I'm going to like leapfrog ahead to being a software developer. And then you basically did a half year course, which was, was basically to teach yourself programming. How did you actually transition from that knowing how and being able to write some code and to read some code to actually being a, a true software developer, so that you would actually be confident enough to say, like, Hey, man, you can hire me for something I found related, and I can develop it for you. Ellen Shapiro: Yeah, I was. So I built to, like, a small application. You know, I was looking at like, Okay, what's, what's something that's like, small that I can focus on that I know people need? So I built this app that I called time converter 24, where it basically takes, you know, what hour is it? And how many minutes into that hour, are we and turns it into, like decimal places. And the main reason I built it is because when I worked in TV production, people had to fill out time cards by saying, Okay, I didn't start at 5:30pm, I started at 17.5. And then we finished at, you know, 2:46am. So that's, you know, because it's the next day, you have to add that to 24. And then I don't even remember what 46 is for, for tents, off the top of my head. And it's something where, like, doing that at like, 230 in the morning, especially if he just worked like a 16 hour day is like really, really not simple. And so it's just something where it was small, I was able to just sort of say, Okay, I did, I did this, I managed to like integrate like an in app purchase. And like I managed to like make a setting screen that doesn't look completely terrible. You know, it was something that really sort of allowed me to put everything together and also be able to publish something because I think it's it's definitely still not super easy to publish things to the App Store. But it was a lot harder. Around iOS four, when I first really started publishing things, or iOS, I guess five is when I really started publishing things. But yeah, it it was yeah, it was a lot. Jeroen Leenarts: But was it a conscious effort to develop some portfolio apps that you could then get hired somewhere or? Ellen Shapiro: That was that was the idea. And like, it was nice, because I got an email from someone who had been using the first app and they said, Hey, like, you know who else uses this kind of time thing is pilots so that I took that and I made another app that was sort of being able to Calculate takeoff and landing time for pilots using that, that kind of using that that same kind of math. And so it was sort of something where I was like, okay, like, I'm showing that I could like, take code that I already wrote and repurpose it, I'm showing that, you know, I can take something and make it better, I'm sure, uh, you know, I showed that I had marginally more design skills, you know, and it was definitely something where, you know, just sort of trying to build that out and show that I could do it was was a big thing. And then, yeah, around that time, I started to get a couple of interviews. And the, the one place that I got a vibe from was this place called The Nerdery. Now, just called nerdery, because you need articles. But the, one of the things that that I subsequently found out was that, like, I was one of the few people who had actually submitted something where like, my own code, not only did it have all of like, the warnings and errors fixed, which I was like, who doesn't just fix all the warnings and errors in your code? Are you nuts, but I had also fixed anything that was like a editing that was a like an analysis. Like the static, the static analyzer warnings. And, you know, the guy who eventually sort of had to, to make the hire was like, yeah, like lots of people who are not nearly as, as experienced as you are. Just ignore that stuff. Because they think they don't need it. And, you know, I was like, the computer is telling you what you're doing wrong, why are you not gonna listen to it? You know, and I think, you know, to a certain extent that, that that attitude still lives in my love for type types languages. Because it's just like, yeah, computer says no, like, you're you're trying, you're trying to do this, you can't. So but yeah, like that was there was something where I definitely got thrown into the deep end on my first job, like, it was there. They're like, Oh, here, just slice this Photoshop document. And get out all of the, the assets. And I was just like, I've never done that before. And I don't have a copy of Photoshop, would somebody like to help me figure out how to do that. So it was really helpful that when I was at The Nerdery, they had a pretty big team. And so it meant that as like, super junior, I had a lot of support. And it was something where, you know, this was before code review is really terribly standard. Like, there were a couple of times where there would be a code review, like literally months after I wrote the code. Yeah, it was not, it was not, it was like, Okay, we got the idea. We just need the execution a little bit better. Jeroen Leenarts: And but what is interesting, what you're saying is that, up till your job at The Nerdery, call it and you were basically sort of like swimming on your own, so to speak, you took some classes, you you managed to put a couple of episodes together, and then at The Nerdery, there were people around you that you could actually ask intelligent questions, too, and get and get a decent answer that would actually help. Yeah, Ellen Shapiro: I think and I think that's a big thing for people who are just starting out, you know, I think, you know, there are some people who really prefer to work alone, or who really don't like working at agencies. But I will say, I don't think I would have gotten where I was as fast as I did, if I wasn't like constantly working on new projects, which is what you wind up doing at agencies, you know, you're you're, you get to hit that File New Project much more often than you do for anything else. And then like, sort of, you know, there's definitely some some habits that that can get you into, that are not great in terms of maintainability. But it's also something where you get opportunities to try a lot of different stuff. And in my, in my case, I think that really helped accelerate how much I was learning, because I just had to dive into all kinds of different stuff and just learn as much as I could as fast as I could. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay, and The Nerdery nerdery. What's it called nowadays? nerdery. Right, Ellen Shapiro: Jessica? Just called nerdery. A couple of years, I guess. But yeah. Jeroen Leenarts: So how long did you work at this place? Ellen Shapiro: So I worked there for two years. And then what happened? Yeah, so then, I had gotten to be friends with some folks through the Chicago iOS community, a lot of whom worked at this company called vocal spelled vo K L because it is the internet. You can't spell anything correctly. You know, we I wound up talking to them and they made me an offer to come join them. And it was a very good offer. So I did. And, you know, that was really great because working at Volvo was the first time that I had the experience ants have immediate feedback on code. So they were they were using, you know, GitHub and code reviews in a, in a really integrated way. In a way that was not really happening. When I was at The Nerdery. I, you know, obviously, it's been a few years since since that was I think they're almost certainly doing that now. But it's definitely something where, like that immediate feedback loop was even more helpful. Because I think there were, there were things that I had just never really gotten any feedback about, because it was so far away from when something was originally written. Jeroen Leenarts: So focal was a agency like, yeah, nerdery Ellen Shapiro: yep, there was another agency. So yeah, so yeah, so I started out as an iOS developer. And then after about a year, I got promoted to senior, which was fun. So yeah, that was that that was nice. I was just like it. You know, my, my, my parents were just like, how are you a senior, if you've only been doing this for three years, and I'm like, to be fair, this is only existed for like, six. So it's, you know, it's definitely one of those things where, you know, there was a little bit of title chasing on my part, but like, you know, it also is something where I've all I've always been someone who's super into, like, measuring and working with other people. And I think that is something that, like, I was able to take some of the skills that I that I gained, when I worked in other industries and apply that to sort of the, the people side of working in technology. So so Jeroen Leenarts: the being like, a senior to your peers and trying to help them, is that something that comes natural to you? Or is it something that you prefer to provide to your peers, because that's something that you've got, when you were Junior, Ellen Shapiro: um, a little bit of both, I mean, it definitely is something where I really try to pay things forward from like, because I got a lot of help when I was when I was starting out. And I think that really helped me get a lot better faster. But I think that, you know, one of the things that I've seen is that it's better for everyone, when somebody who's new gets better faster. And I think that, like, you know, there comes a point where I sometimes see people who are just sort of like trying to hoard the knowledge, and just be like, Well, if you don't know, I'm not gonna tell you. And it's just like, You're not helping anyone by doing bad, you're, you're really, you're, you're really just sort of tying your colleagues hands behind their backs. And you know, it's definitely something where, you know, there is a point at which like, you want to be like, Okay, try googling it for like, 15 minutes before you come and ask me any questions. Because that, you know, just like not putting any effort into finding it can be good. But then like, if you can't find it after googling for 15 minutes, then come ask question, because you're sitting there and banging your head against the wall is not going to be helpful for anybody. Jeroen Leenarts: So but the the the hoarding of knowledge, that that's something that I'd like to create, creating a liability, because what I tend to do, if I'm in a situation that somebody is creating a liability is like, really go head to head with the liability, the liability needs to be gone. And there are multiple ways that you can deal with a liability like that. And one of the things is making sure that the knowledge is shared. Ellen Shapiro: Well, and that's, that's definitely harder to deal with, when you're a newer programmer, because there's some people who were just like, well, that's just the way it is. And it's like, no, it's not neighbors the way you are, and that means you're a jerk. But, um, you know, it's, it's one of those things where, you know, some of it comes from, I think, for particularly for people who are in these sort of, like, very like cutthroat political situations, for in larger corporations like, this is something that I've seen over and over again, is that that is one of the biggest motivators for people to hoard knowledge is just like, oh, yeah, if I, if I don't, if I give knowledge to anyone else, then I won't get credit for it. And, you know, things will be not good. And, you know, like, my wife is in academia, and like, one of the biggest problems in academia is that, like, every bit of programming knowledge that everybody has, is just like, Okay, I've managed to hammer these two little things together in order to be able to make a reusable graph. You know, and like, how do I how do I apply this to anything? And because the number of jobs are so small, you know, everybody is trying to get every advantage they possibly can over everybody else. And so people don't talk about like, hey, let's all work together to make an easier way to do this. Like it's it's it's something where you know that that incentive is to keep as much of that knowledge close to your chest as you possibly can. Jeroen Leenarts: So but you're actually from Wisconsin, if I'm correct. Ellen Shapiro: So I live in Wisconsin. I am originally from Washington DC. So I was I was born and raised in DC, I lived there until I was 18. And then lived in LA for eight years. While not then I went to college in Chicago for four years, lived in LA for eight years, then moved back to Chicago for another six years. And that's what I moved to the Netherlands for two years. And then about a year ago, we moved here to Wisconsin, which is where my wife has a another fellowship. So yeah, it's been, it's been interesting, you know, she's, I'm very, very lucky. Because, you know, this, this is very much in contrast to when I worked in television production, you know, when I worked in TV production, your options were live in LA, or don't have a job, you know, with, with what I do now, basically, all I need is a laptop and internet connection to get my job done. So the fact that I live in Madison, Wisconsin, rather than in, you know, one of the the major tech hubs in in New York, or San Francisco, or even in Chicago is is not really that big of a of a deterrent to potential employers, because, you know, the place I worked out was all about early well, they were like, 70% remote, I think before the pandemic and obviously right now we're all remote but bad, like they were very, but but, you know, that's, that's been really good because, like, you know, having the flexibility where we're, you know, if we move somewhere, we're not looking for two jobs is really helpful. And, you know, it's definitely it's definitely made my wife's life easier in terms of trying to find fun jobs. Jeroen Leenarts: So yeah, yeah, you're saying your wife because she got married recently, right? Yeah. So Ellen Shapiro: we we were supposed to have a big wedding. On June 14. We did get married on June 5014. It was a wedding that included me, her and our Rabbi, and that was Jeroen Leenarts: just a tad bit smaller than what you were planning lightly smaller. Ellen Shapiro: Yeah, we're still actually planning on having like a wedding. So we rescheduled it for August of 2021. Jeroen Leenarts: Fingers crossed, Ellen Shapiro: man, I'm gonna be a I'm gonna be out a lot of money. If that doesn't work. And be I'm gonna be really disappointed. Because like, honestly, like, I'm ready to just like, actually hang out with people and party. Yeah, cuz yeah, I'm a huge extrovert and being home alone all the time. Kind of sucks. Jeroen Leenarts: I didn't notice that when you watch them. I know, Ellen Shapiro: I never kept talking to people for hours at a time, even though I probably should go and catch the last train. Yeah, it's definitely something where, you know, like I wanted when I was living at night when I didn't come to Amsterdam five days a week, because that would have been insane. Like, 15 hours a week on the train is kind of kind of bonkers. But I came three days a week, because I really, really prefer being in a place with people. And, you know, before the pandemic hit, I had just gotten a co working space. And I was really like, getting it like really getting to be, like actually getting to hang out with people. And I was like, Okay, I like this. And then it's like, and now you're working from home. Yeah, so like, yeah, there was a, there was a very long period of time, where I was just like, well, this is just gonna be, it's gonna be fine. I don't have I don't really have enough room to like, have a second desk here. So like, I'm just gonna, like sit on this like sort of couch chair and put a put a dining room table leaf across it and use that as my desk. And it's just basically like, yeah, that's not actually good for your back. Seriously. Yeah. I know. It turns out. So yeah, so like, literally last week, I just finally was like, I can't take this anymore. And I had to find like a really, really small desk because like, I think you can, you can see I obviously your listeners get that I am currently in my bedroom. Like with the cap. Yeah. Yep. George. Michael is snoring away in the background. I don't know if Jeroen Leenarts: he's like, leaving us to it. I must say cuz I've seen other videos a few times. He's like, like, in your face all the time. Ellen Shapiro: Yeah, he's he. He's just excited that it's like, it's it's the middle of the day, and he can just kind of sleep all the time. By like, yeah, so we have two cats who've been keeping us entertained, but it's definitely something where like, I have been having a difficult time with being all the time and not really getting the same people because that's, you know, I used to, you know, I was I was I've told a couple of people like I'm used to being at a different conference every month. I've been doing that probably since about 20. 16 Yeah, you Jeroen Leenarts: you were getting around a lot. Yeah. No, I noticed that on your schedule. Yeah, Ellen Shapiro: yeah. And you know, it's it's definitely something where I really enjoy speaking at conferences. I really have a good time doing it. And I also love to travel. So like when people are like, Would you like to come to Italy? We'll pay you to come. I was like, Yes, I would. I'm like, Yes, please, please save me a giant ball of burrata. But yeah, it's definitely something where it, you know, I've done a couple of remote conferences, and I think it is a little bit harder. Just because I really do feed off of the energy of the people in the room. Jeroen Leenarts: Can I tell you a little secret? Yeah. All right. It's fine if it's recorded, but the reason I started my podcast talking to a screen, like it really freaked me out. And I was like, Okay, if it hurts do it more often, right? Ellen Shapiro: Yeah, I don't know about that. One. That's that that does sound like the Dutch approach. But yeah, I think I think for me, it's definitely something where I definitely do better. In one on one talks with people, it is, it is really weird to sort of just be giving a talk where like, here's the punchline, and it's like, I have no idea of anybody laughed at that. And, you know, I think it is something where there's pieces of doing remote conferences that are easier, just in terms of like, you don't actually have to get on a plane and go anywhere, you know, you don't even have to put on pants, but like, you know, it's it's something where, you know, I think that one of the things that's that's good about it is that you're able to sort of stop and, and do other stuff if you need to. But it also means that, like, you have less of the incentive to like, actually listen to a talk. Yeah, and like, you know, especially when things are happening, like during work time, that can be very difficult. I think it's also something where, like, I, one of the things that I've found when I'm at conferences is that I actually close my laptop and like, take notes with a Apple pencil on a an iPad, because, like, I have horrible add, and that's just sort of like the way that my brain, like, if I leave my laptop open, I'm going to be working on something, and I'm going to get distracted, I'm going to miss something that's useful. And if I'm just sitting there, like actually taking notes, or you know, even if I'm just like, I think people have probably seen me like sitting in the back, like, drawing all sorts of stuff on my iPad, but like, I, I need to not be looking at the I need to be I need to not be looking at my computer because otherwise I get way too easily distracted. And if I like if I, I sort of, you know, I found by when I when I was in high school, I had like this graph paper that I would draw like patterns and stuff all over while I was listening to class. And I found that recently, and it's like this thick of old graph paper that I just did all sorts of patterns on. And I was like, wow, it's what a surprise that I was later diagnosed with a DD you know, and it's just, it's something where I think for me like having something to like, Shut up the part of my brain that's like La, la, la, la, la, la, la. Like, is really important. Jeroen Leenarts: Now, because the doodling that you do with your pencil isn't really like it's just enough to keep that part of your brain occupied so that the other part of your brain can actually focus on what you want to focus on. Yeah, it's a very interesting effect. I've, I've seen it, I've seen it before. And very occasionally I do that as well, but Ellen Shapiro: and it's definitely something that like, personally works for me, it does not work for everybody, because I definitely know people who are just like, Ooh, I'm gonna concentrate on the art that's like, nope. Um, so yeah, so it's definitely, you know, it's definitely something where Jeroen Leenarts: are you? Are you one of those people that if they go to a museum with artworks that you start wondering about, what what color they've chosen for the wallpaper next to the artwork? Ellen Shapiro: No, I'm not quite that. I'm not quite at that level. But yeah, well, and usually, depending on the museum, you know, obviously, if it's like part of a permanent collection or something, it's there, there's probably some kind of rhyme or reason to what's going on there. But you know, if it's not like a permanent collection, it's just like, Well, this was blue. colors on this wall sounds like a plan. Jeroen Leenarts: So but besides your, your day job at graph, QL Yeah, Apollo are other things that you currently undertake. Well, not much you can do right now. Like, are there other activities that you that you do sort of like somewhat professionally or Ellen Shapiro: not, not terribly professionally? You know, obviously I do. I've been doing a lot of editing. I used to do more writing but now a lot of editing for Um, books for Ray Wonderlic. And then non professionally, we bought a kayak because we live a block from a lake. And we're like, alright, you know, it's a good way to socially distance from people is to paddle out into the middle of the lake. And yeah, that was really fun, we really that, you know, we wind up, we wind up going all over Wisconsin and you know, go into lakes and rivers and stuff and it was really, it was really fun. And you know, my, my wife and I are both very like outdoorsy. So Jeroen Leenarts: you say outdoorsy, but it's not like day trips, or also camping. Ellen Shapiro: For us, it's been more day trips. It used to be more camping. But there's a number of reasons that that's less common right now. But, yeah, hopefully, we'll be able to get back to doing more camping in the future. And yeah, I don't know, it's been, it's been, you know, I think it's definitely been nice. You know, just sort of being forced to spend more time outdoors, because it's like, do you want to see literally anyone? Good go outside? Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, then it's, then it's easy to like, talk to someone and keep enough distance. Ellen Shapiro: Yeah, so we bought, like, we have a, we bought a fire pit. So we can just like, you know, put some logs on the fire pit and still talk to people because it's kind of cold over here right now. And, you know, it's just, it's been nice to be able to spend time with with some people just because like, yeah, like, being able to being able to do it and still be safe is like, kind of critical. So it's yeah, it's really and you know, obviously right now, things in the US are not good, like, really not good. And so it is something where I think everybody is really trying to be extra careful. Or at least the people that I know, are trying to be extra careful, there's certainly a number of people who clearly are not, but you know, it's, it's Yeah, try trying to balance sort of that psychological need for human contact, and the desire to not get this viruses. Is, is difficult. And you know, I think I think it is something where, you know, I knew several people who got it when the the first thing when, when the first round of stuff went through somebody that I know, who was older, passed away from it. And my, one of my one of my co workers actually went up with basically the law and COVID stuff, where it's like, Congratulations, you now feel like crap forever. And it seems pretty awful. And it's something where, you know, I, I have asthma, I am overweight, those are both risk factors. And so I'm just really trying not to get sick, which, you know, is a you know, it's, it's, it's definitely something where you have to put a lot of effort into it. And there's a lot of people who are really, really tired of putting a lot of effort into it. And I think you've sort of seen that happen in the numbers in the US where people are just, there's some people that are basically giving up on it. And it's really frustrating, because Jeroen Leenarts: what do you do? You work at focal for how long? Ellen Shapiro: So I was there for almost four years. So after I got promoted to a senior, I was a senior there for two and a half years. And then my director quit, and I became the director of iOS development, which was not a good idea. For anyone involved. It turns out that when you put someone in charge of like 25 people, and you put them in charge of a huge project, that is a recipe for burnout. And there was a lot of stuff going on at that job at that time. Things. Things didn't go very well. And I definitely burned out super hard. And eventually, there were some things that that happened, and I wound up just leaving. Jeroen Leenarts: It was a severe case of the Peter Principle, I reckon. Ellen Shapiro: I don't think it was the Peter Principle in terms of like, you're going to be promoted until you fail. I think it was. I think some of it was I didn't know what I was getting myself into what I went when I was like, okay, cool. Now I have an even better title. And then like, there's all of this, there's all of this stuff that you went when you're at that level that you need to know and care about that I just was like, completely shielded from by my predecessor And then when I was no longer shielded from it, I was like, oh my god, this is Jeroen Leenarts: it you got promoted? And it didn't really work out. So you went somebody somewhere else? Ellen Shapiro: Yeah, well, I at first, I just quit. Because I was just like I things got to a point where I knew that I was not going to be able to provide the leadership that was needed. I was like, I cannot do this. I am not, I am not in a position to say, Yes, I agree that everything that we're doing here is what needs to be done. Jeroen Leenarts: But was it like, was it more like a hard lesson or like a confirmation to yourself? Okay, this is not something I want to do. Ellen Shapiro: I'm a little bit of both. You know, it was definitely, I think, for me, it was a hard lesson, because I think I, I didn't really put as much thought into what it would mean, to take that job as I absolutely should have. You know, I was just like, sweet, I got another promotion. And I didn't really understand what that meant in terms of how that job would change. And particularly in terms of how much less time I would spend working on code, Jeroen Leenarts: what advice would you give to your younger self, like the day before, this offer was extended to Ellen Shapiro: you agree to take it on an interim basis, so it's easier to step back? If you don't like it? You know, it was definitely something where, you know, there's a lot of advice I'd give about that particular company. But it's definitely something where, you know, like, a lot of the stuff that that wound up happening, there wasn't really anybody's fault. It just there was just a lot of really bad luck happened all at once. And it led to some really nasty Fallout, Jeroen Leenarts: of course, this case is specific to you. But I think it's it's a principle that a lot of software developers get to face at some point in their career, because everybody starts as a junior start programming get senior roles into a lead engineer, position, maybe your principal engineer position, still very technical. And then at some point, the only, the only way up, it seems, is to go into some form of management. Ellen Shapiro: There's a lot of companies that are working on sort of how do we have an advanced engineering track, that means that people are sort of like still able to progress their careers without having to become managers? And I think that's, that's certainly not, that's certainly a thing that that people are keep an eye on. But yeah, there is a lot of a lot of places where people sort of have to make a choice between being a manager and being an individual computer contributor, and I think a lot of people don't really realize how their life is going to change when they make that choice. Or if they try to keep doing both, which is what I tried to do. Congratulations, you now have two jobs. And that is exhausting. And, you know, that's that's definitely something where, you know, I think, I think I think I would probably also tell myself, like, you're gonna, you're gonna either be this management person, or you're gonna build stuff. Like, pick one. Jeroen Leenarts: There's actually a book that I read on this specific topic by O'Reilly, maybe you've heard of it, it's by Camille Fournier. And it's the managers path. And it's, it's a very concise guide on like, well, just different levels of what I call leadership, if you are in a in a in a software development engineering role. So yeah, if people are facing the same issues that you described here, then maybe that's a good resource for people to actually have a look at. Ellen Shapiro: Yeah, there's definitely there's definitely a lot more resources around it. And like, I do feel like there were some resources around it at the time that I just like, didn't even like know existed. And I think I think for me, the biggest thing was was just like, I was I was so sort of like, focused on being proud that I got asked to do this that I wasn't really paying attention to whether that was a good idea or not. Yeah, that's Jeroen Leenarts: a big trap. That's, that's true. Yeah. Okay, so you fell in the trap? Then you escaped it? Ellen Shapiro: Yeah. Why not? Then i i managed to like prop a prop open the bear trap with the stick and like, pull my leg back out. And yeah, that's so yeah, so I quit. Jeroen Leenarts: And then what happened? What did you do next? Ellen Shapiro: Um, so yeah, I took a little bit of time off, not not a ton. But then I wound up taking a position at a company called Spot hero. So they had initially built out their iOS app. Android applications with the contractor. And what spot hero does is they do like short term rentals of parking spots in the US and Canada. So, you know, if you like if, like, let's say it's not COVID. And you were going to go to a play, and you live out in the suburbs, you could pay for your parking space and get a little like QR code that you get to the thing, and you show him the QR code, and then they just let you go in and park. So you don't have to worry about looking around for a parking space, you don't have to worry about, you know, like, try to circle the block 100 times, you just go and you're done. And, you know, that was I think one of the things that I was looking at, in terms of like, what kind of job I wanted after vocal, you know, one of the things that that had always been hard was was stuff where, as an agency, we would build a bunch of stuff. And we spent all of this time and all of this effort building stuff. And it would either like, be out in the world for like three months and then fall apart. Or, you know, or it would literally just be made to throw away. And I was just like, you know, I want to make sure that i i I land someplace where I can explain what it is the company that I work for does to my parents. And like spider hero was like, right in that that in that sweet spot where I can say, hey, this is a thing that you can actually use. And they were like, cool. And you know, it was something where because there were definitely a lot of things where it was like, oh, there's these like esoteric, these really interesting things that are happening. But like, it wasn't clear where money was coming from, it wasn't clear what kind of business plan anything had. And like spot hero, it was like they had sort of a product market fit. They just needed to make their their product better. And more stable. And so yeah, so they brought me in, and I built out the team there. So eventually, when I left to move to the Netherlands, we had, I think five iOS developers and for Android developers, I think both both of those numbers, including me, but you know, it's it was really fun, because we were able to really, I was able to bring in some really, really good developers and we were able to build some neat stuff. And we were really able to set that app up for long term success. And it was a little bit disappointing that that I couldn't keep working for them. When I moved to the Netherlands, just for assorted legal and tax reasons. Because we had certifiably gotten to that point of like, Alright, we've got it, like out of the mud, and we've got it to a point where like, it's gonna be easier to build on long term. Now let's go. And then it was like, and I gotta go by. Jeroen Leenarts: Oh, that's it, you did leave on a high note. And then that's probably one of the places that you worked at. You have fond memories of it? Ellen Shapiro: Yes, yeah. No, I like I like working there. And, yeah, I felt really bad. Like they they've really gotten hammered by COVID. Just because obviously, if people don't leave their house, they don't need to park the car anywhere. So it's, it's that's been that's been really hard for a lot of the people that I used to work with there. And that's that's been, you know, it's been difficult for a lot of places. You know, it's it's a, I think it is something where, like, I think one thing is really hard for a lot of these a lot of these businesses is their long term, their long term business plans are perfectly sound assuming that there's not a once in a century pandemic. And the like, if there is a once in a century pandemic. They're right, and it's over. Yeah. And it's just like, you know, it's, it's really hard because people have to make decisions to try and get there, try and get their team through it in whatever form they can. But you know, it's it's hard, man. It's really hard. Jeroen Leenarts: So then your now wife asked you to move to the Netherlands. Ellen Shapiro: It was like, Do you want to move to the Netherlands? I was like, yes. She was like, I haven't told you where or when. And I was like, yes. Jeroen Leenarts: When you went out you already had a job or you started looking when you were in situated in the Netherlands? Yeah, Ellen Shapiro: I started looking when when we when we got to 9am I can I actually that was part of why I started coming to Cobo heads in Amsterdam was to start meeting people and start sort of trying to understand sort of, you know, how much of this is possible if I continue to work from nine to 10? Or and how much like what's possible if I wind up moving to or if I wind up just commuting to Amsterdam? And so it was definitely interesting. I spoke to a few different people and I got I got a few interviews from talking to people there. And yeah, like it was really it was really helpful for me to be able to like sort of meet everyone It's also Jeroen Leenarts: what year was that? Actually that you? 2017 2017? Yeah. Ellen Shapiro: And it's definitely, you know, like in terms of like moving overseas for Americans like the Netherlands is kind of easy mode because especially in Amsterdam, like the Dutch overheads is all in English. Like there's, there's there's definitely, you know, as you IELTS native on spec, you can. But I, you know, if, if you want to speak Dutch you can, but all the presentations are in English. Most most, most Dutch people, particularly in Amsterdam speak very, very good English. And, you know, I want to blurting a fair amount of Dutch partly make it easier for me to communicate, and I mentioned where there's at least moderately fewer people who have essentially perfectly but, you know, it's definitely, it's definitely something were in terms of, like, oh, yeah, like, I didn't like move to like, you know, like Warsaw or something and find something where it's like, oh, this is all in Polish, which I don't speak. You know, and it's, it's definitely something where, you know, being able to have that community, when we moved is really, really helpful. And it's definitely something that, you know, I'm looking forward to, wherever we move next, you know, Lord only knows where that's gonna be. But, you know, I think having the iOS community and having this community that you can reach out to across the world is really, really helpful. Jeroen Leenarts: I think if you if you have a good network, then especially nowadays that if you know the right people, then doesn't matter where you go, there's always somebody that's based on your merits that can say like, Hey, man, I got a job for you if you need it, and maybe it doesn't pay the best money, but still, there is some investor somewhere yeah. And I imagine if you if you move to like Alaska or something, how much money could you need? Like not a lot? Ellen Shapiro: Alaska is actually surprisingly expensive, because it takes like, You got to like schlep stuff up there to get it to get it. That's that's that it's kind of like being in Norway, where it's just like, oh, yeah, like, we're like way up here. And also, everything is really expensive. Jeroen Leenarts: Oh, you don't have to, like pay a lot of money for keeping stuff frozen. But that's Ellen Shapiro: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no, that's so but Jeroen Leenarts: saying you, you, you, you wound up at back and back. Yep. I think I pronounced it correctly. Yeah, it's a Bakunin. Baek Oh, backing them back. Sorry. And, and you worked out for a few years. Yeah, I Ellen Shapiro: worked there for about a year and a half. So we were in the Netherlands for a total of two years, and sort of what it became fairly clear that we were going to be going back to the US, but it wasn't super clear where in the US that we are going to be going, I started keeping an ear to the ground for remote jobs. And then I saw the position at Apollo listed. And I'd already been interested in Graph QL, I'd already been sort of starting to look into it from a technology standpoint. And I could tell that they were sort of in a position, somewhat similar to spot hero, when I started there, where they were like, Hey, we made some mobile things help. And Jeroen Leenarts: it's like, hey, we built something and it's cool, but I don't know, stuff keeps falling off. Can you help us please? Ellen Shapiro: Yeah. And I'm like, Well, you've come to the right place. And yeah, it's really exciting. I think long term, I really want to try to build out a really strong mobile practice there and try to try to get like, like mobile specific developer relations kicked off there. But that's definitely first thing I have to do is get the iOS SDK to 1.0, which will be hopefully soon ish, maybe, you know, I think one of the things that was was difficult about about starting, when I did was that there was a lot of bit rot. And there was a lot of stuff that just hadn't been touched in, like two or three years. And it wasn't like, like, actively bad or anything, it was just very difficult to understand. And so I've been, you know, working through a lot of changes on that. And then I'm very, very glad. The person who actually originally wrote the SDK is actually back with Apollo and helping me untangle the cache, which is complicated. Yeah, like, I'm really, I'm really hoping that between the two of us, we're gonna be able to get the iOS SDK to something where we're really comfortable calling it 1.0. And saying, Alright, we're gonna really, like work to improve it from here and get it to a point where, like, we're really excited about what this can do. And Jeroen Leenarts: some of what, what made you like, apply at at Apollo? Ellen Shapiro: You know, I first applied there, partly because I knew that they were looking for someone who had both iOS and Android experience, which I do. I knew that. Obviously, I was excited about graph. QL like I was like, if I'm not excited about Graph QL this seems like a dumb job. You know? I think it was also just the ability to work from anywhere, you know, the fact that I, I knew that I was going to have to have something flexible because we didn't know where we're going to be moving. Like that was a big that was a big deal for me. Jeroen Leenarts: Is it a comforting idea that no matter what your partner in life decides to do next that you can say, like, Hey, you're going there, I'm going with you and no problems with my job, maybe some timezone difference, but hey, yeah, Ellen Shapiro: I mean, that's, that's, that's really, you know, it really is meaningful. To me where, like, you know, my wife, like I said, she's an academic, so she needs like, a lab and a Research Board, and, you know, university to work at, and all sorts of things like that, that require her presence in a physical place in a way that my work really doesn't. And, you know, it is something where having the flexibility to be able to, you know, let her take whatever seems like the best opportunity rather than whatever seems like the best opportunity where I can also get a job is like that, that's a game changer. You know, I think, you know, we see, she's seen this a lot with a lot of people who have, you know, both members of the couple are in academia, so they call it the two body problem, and where they not only have to find a place that will hire one of them, they have to find a place that will hire both of them. And that's not always very simple. So it's definitely, it's definitely something where, you know, not having the duality problem is a huge help for her. And I think for me, like just being able to be that much more of a supportive partner is important to me. Jeroen Leenarts: So what, how did it's an audio technician? Like you and a academia? How to how, how did the two of you meet actually? Ellen Shapiro: OkCupid? Oh, that's cool. Yeah. Internet. Yeah, no, I mean, you know, it's, it's, she was at she was at the University of Chicago. And when I was working in Chicago, and yes, so gotta get internet blind date, basically. So Jeroen Leenarts: how long ago was this? Ellen Shapiro: This was 2014 I think. Yeah, cuz it was I measure thing and port polar vortexes. It was the it was the it was after the, the polar vortex in 2020. Winter 20 1314. Where, yeah, that was a that was a terrible winter. It was cold one. Yes. It was like, so you don't have Fahrenheit and Celsius come back together around negative 40. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, also, it was zero on both scales or something. Or what was it Ellen Shapiro: again? So negative 40? For both Fahrenheit and Celsius? Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, they intersect. That's one point. That's like really cool. Yes. Like, that's, that's, that's how cold it was. That that's like your fingers are gonna fall off cold. Ellen Shapiro: Yeah, it was like, You do not want to have any exposed skin color with like, I have a picture of me where I'm wearing like a big like Mask and I'm wearing ski goggles and a big hat. And it's just like, not, not a millimeter of skin is exposed. Because if it was I would have gotten frostbite. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, it would have been painful. Okay, um, so you'd now work at Graph QL. Ellen Shapiro: Apollo Apollo graph. QL. So Apollo is like the Apollo graph. QL? Yeah. Apollo is the company that like yet Apollo is a slightly overloaded name. There's like multiple different companies all called Apollo. And we sometimes get confused with them. We're like, No, we're not the terrible hedge fund that, like messes up everything. But Jeroen Leenarts: the plan is to go to the moon, though. Ellen Shapiro: Yeah, we're going through the man. Yeah, we definitely have, like, obviously, lots and lots of space jokes and space references. But, yeah, it's so yeah, so I've worked there about a year and a half now. And, yeah, it's been really, it's been really nice. And it's been really rewarding to hear back from people who are really excited about sort of the changes and getting stuck to a more stable position. And, you know, I really, I'm slightly disappointed in myself that I haven't been able to get as much of the sort of final piece of things done. It is something where I think I am coming to really realization of how much work I've gotten myself into. And so it's, it's, it's been something that I'm really trying to move forward as fast as I can. I just wished as fast as I can, was faster than it is. Jeroen Leenarts: There was one piece of advice that you already gave there was like, if you're like, happily merrily developing software, and then at some point, somebody proposes a promotion to like sort of managerial type of role. Step back, think about it. Know what you get yourself into. That's basically what you're saying. Are there any other pieces of advice that you would give any random developer out there? Ellen Shapiro: Yeah, I think I think one thing I often say to people who are just getting started is, you know, you one of the things that I had a really hard time with, because I like, I was like an overachiever. When I was in school. You know, I was always like, Oh, give me an A must have a like, you know, I was very much that jerk. But it was something where when I first started working on apps and code, when something wouldn't compile, or something didn't work the first time, I would get really angry at myself. You mean nerd rage is nerd like, like self flagellation, you know, what are the keys for me that that, that allowed me to sort of basically continue programming and not lose my absolute mind was being able to sit back and sort of take a look at when something fails? As this is trying to tell me something. Let me try to figure out what this failure is trying to tell me. And you know, if it fails with an error, well, that makes that there's what it's trying to tell you. But, you know, if it if it fails, you're like, I don't know why this isn't working, then it sort of turns more into like a detective novel, of like, who killed my code? Oh, wait, I did. But you know, it's it's definitely something where having the attitude of a failure to build is not a failure of self. It's, it's something where it is, it is a step along the way to getting something to work. That was huge for me, because I think that stopped me from beating myself up as much as I had been. And I think if I had kept beating myself up like that, I never would have kept coding, like, I just wouldn't have been possible. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay. And, and any, any books or research that you would recommend? Ooh, Ellen Shapiro: that's a good one. Yeah, I have to give the obviously biased answer of you should totally subscribe to the rare winner like total book package. So Jeroen Leenarts: I should get an affiliate link from this guy, you Ellen Shapiro: totally should. I've been an editor on a bunch of books. And they recently changed some of their business models, so that you can actually access all of the books through a subscription model. And like, it's a slightly lower fee for like sort of beginner level books only. And then it's a slightly higher fee for like every single book that they've ever put out. I'm in the middle of reading a book. It's called working in public. And it's a book about open source stewardship. And it's a book about sort of what is open source and sort of how the different people define what open source is. It's by stripe press, which apparently the guys who created stripe made enough money that they were like, Let's make a vanity press. But yeah, this is one of the few books that I bought in like dead tree format in a while, because it's actually a really cool looking book. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay, that's, that's a good one, to add to the list. If there's something that we missed, or something you'd like to add, or Ellen Shapiro: if anyone is interested in learning more about Apollo Apollo graph ql.com. Yeah, if you go to docs slash iOS, there's both a tutorial and some installation and API reference stuff. That should really be helpful for people who are just getting started with it. I also did a talk fairly recently. That's, that's called Graph QL. From the ground up, because my original title, WTF is Graph QL got rejected? Yeah, I really enjoyed putting that one together, because I think I tried to explain a lot of the basics of Graph QL that I think are often explained from a front end standpoint. And I don't think they're often explained from a mobile standpoint. So I tried to explain them from sort of how we think about interacting with API's for mobile, and sort of some of the differences between what you're getting for rest versus Graph QL rest makes a lot more sense for some things. But I think it's also something where it is possible to have to look at what you have and say, Okay, how can we best take advantage of Graph QL? Where it helps us and then not try to take advantage of Graph QL? Where that would would not be helpful. So Jeroen Leenarts: Okay. Well, I think that's, that's some interesting topics to look into. I do want to wrap it up, because we've been going at it for quite a long time. So thank you, Ellen, it was very interesting to hear actually, that you were actually an audio engineer, who went to Hollywood and then learned a lot of things along the way, went to a training course of six months to become a programmer, and then work hard to become a software developer actually, and then stumbled here in there, ended up in the Netherlands, and then went back to the States again, basically, due to love and doing a job now that I think She really enjoys and I hope she'll be doing that for like, a few more years. And that will end up with a great Graph QL client library from Apollo, Ellen Shapiro: when this gets to be where I want it to be, it's gonna be really awesome. And I'm, I'm really, really excited for that.