RevenueCat and Josh Holtz

Jeroen Leenarts: Hi, and welcome to another special edition of my podcast. I'm sitting here with somebody who's very familiar if you've been listening to my podcast for a while now, that's Josh Holtz. But before I introduce him, I want to share something with you. That's very interesting. And that's the fact that this episode is in its entirety, sponsored by revenue cat. So I decided it would be good to just introduce revenue cats, if you've never heard of them before, which would be kind of surprising. But I just want to do it anyway. So revenue cats in app subscriptions are a pain, the code can be hard to write time consuming to maintain, and full of edge cases, revenue cap makes it simple. So you can focus on building features, not a subscription backends. With revenue cat, you also get out of the box, subscription metrics and charts that you can't get from App Store Connect. Plus pre built integrations make it easy to sync customer events and revenue data to every tool in your stack. Learn more at revenue cats.com and see why 1000s of the world's best app trust revenue gets to power subscriptions on iOS, Android, and the web. Okay, Josh, I think we're done. Right. Josh Holtz: Perfect episode done. I'll. I'll see you next week. Jeroen Leenarts: Bye. So now just to get things started, I'm sitting here with Josh Hall. So just so happens to be working at revenue cat. And it's something you've been doing for a while now. So how long have you been working on revenue cat Josh Holtz: now? Since December 13, of 2021, which is I guess, is almost almost seven months now. It feels like it's been more than that. But yeah. Jeroen Leenarts: So and why did you decide to start work at revenue cap? Because it's a well known company for at least app developers. So there must have been a reason that you started working there, because you did let go of some of your previous activities that you had before starting and revenue cat, right? Josh Holtz: Yeah, yeah. So I was I was working at a consulting firm that I started back in 2011. But I wanted to try something new. And I've been doing indie apps, I think my first one I officially published in like 20 2019. And I didn't want to do some sort of IPs in it, because most of my ESP before had been free. So I wanted to actually like charge something for it. But I didn't really want to learn store code, because it definitely looked terrifying. So I integrated revenue cat into my first app. And I think it took me about two or three hours, which felt super surprising to me, because I was always terrified of subscriptions. So that was a great first experience. And then I released two more apps shortly after, and those to get subscriptions in was about an hour apiece. So it just felt it felt amazing and almost unreal, there was a tool that could help me do that. And I used it because I didn't want to deal with store kit or receipt stuff or any of that. But turns out that I actually did want to work on that stuff, which is why I started as an engineer on the SDK is in December of last year, I have experienced working with it for about a year and a half for two years. And then I wanted to jump in and help a bit. Jeroen Leenarts: And in that one and a half years that you've been working as a customer of revenue cat integrating the SDK in your own products. Did you have insight in their SDK? Is it open source or closed source? Josh Holtz: So the SDK is our open source. But I don't think I've ever actually really looked too close into them. When I was integrating them. The SDK is at the time where Objective C, which I thoroughly enjoyed working with Objective C back in the day, but since then, it's been a while since I've used it. So I didn't really take a quick look at it. But right when I started then up releasing their new SDK for swift, which is much more enjoyable to experience Jeroen Leenarts: for people who want to learn a little bit more of your backstory, they should look in my back catalogue of episodes, because I did a previous interview with you on my podcast. Most people also know you as one of the people who work on Fastlane tools, more info in that episode. But in your words, what is revenue cat actually not as a company, but as a product for an end user? Josh Holtz: So I mean, there's yeah, there's quite a few ways that you can look at it from from the developer standpoint, like it's, it's a way to get subscriptions and stuff without writing a bunch of Storchak code, which is the reason why I originally wanted to do it. But also, if you do have a cross platform app, it's a great way to like unify your subscriptions across all platforms, which currently I am not cross platform. But if I do want to have any cross platform apps, I can easily do that. But it's it at its core is is a nice subscription platform that extracts all of the complicated bits edge cases out. And it just makes subscriptions just super easy. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay, and with cross platform, you mean, cross ecosystem platforms, right? Josh Holtz: iOS, Android, Amazon stripe, yes, like all the things, they all have a store. But with revenue catch, you get an integrated view on how you are performing across the board, if you so choose to. Agreed, yeah. And then all of the SDK is to are built pretty close to the same. So if you're doing iOS, you don't have to learn store kit. And then if you're doing Android, you don't have to learn building client, our SDK is are generally structured the same on both platforms. So it is really easy to add a new one when you want to do that. Jeroen Leenarts: So and if you look at, because most listeners to my podcasts will be iOS developers, if you look at the process of what it takes to get some form of subscription, or in app purchase, going with revenue cats, what are some what are some of the main line steps that you need to do, of course, it's great the SDK, but what else, Josh Holtz: so you need to get all of your products that you have on the app store, get all those IDs put over into our side, which is really just copying the the single string, that's most of the work that is involved in getting stuff created. And then you have to add a, I think it's called an app store secret key or something like that, which allows allows us to verify the receipts and stuff on your behalf, that's just creating a key on App Store, connect, and then importing that P eight file. And that's really all it takes to get things started, which is super nice. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah. And that's the type of receipt validation as you're supposed to do it, send it off from the device to the to your surf and let the surf do the validation and not the end user app itself. Josh Holtz: Yes, you can do it in the app. But things can get hacked or cracked, or whatever the proper word is there. So doing it on the server side doesn't make it a lot more secure. Deus revenue can also support use case that you unlock functionality by doing a purchase through the App Store, but then also that's on your own server. And you can verify that the actual device connecting to you has this purchase in place, so that you can enable certain functionality on the service side of your implementation. So those are called entitlements. And you can pair those two different subscriptions. When you make a purchase your customer info stored on our side, we'll get that unlock, and the app will also see that but then there is a web hook that you can use so that when that happens on our side, we send that information over to your API, you can then see that hey, this user unlocked this subscription and then and then from there, they have Pro or anything that you need to continue it's interesting Jeroen Leenarts: because you got acquainted with revenue cat as a as an end user. So you basically signed up for the service integrated the SDK because you want to avoid using stock it and then all of a sudden you basically decided to flip the script got interested in socket and now socket two and you decided well let's go let's go deep let's go let's go Josh style into this and just like make it easy for other people, right? So what's the what's the deal there? Because first you try to avoid it and then you actually become the expert on some of this stuff. Josh Holtz: I enjoy pain and I'm not I'm not exactly sure why. But I think I like being a user first seeing like how easy it could be and then going into it and trying to like help amplify that I had absolutely no interest in store kit or anything before like 2019 2020 And then I used it and I was like this this is really easy this is the way it should be I want to help keep making this work I've learned a lot about not just store get or store get to but all of like the behind the scenes stuff receipt validation web hooks all the different like subscription edge cases that can happen when you upgrade downgrade crossgrade is apparently a thing to I've learned about like the different app subscription groups that are also there like there's a lot there. Revenue cat does a great job at hiding all the different like weird edge cases that you as a normal developer wouldn't know exist but because we've seen so many different receipts apps and stuff over all the years like we've seen almost every edge case I think possible and like try and fix all of those so like it's super cool to come in like relatively like late into the game I think and just see like what the team has already done to Jeroen Leenarts: you mentioned that edge cases and stuff that is not obvious if you're directly developing against talk it yourself but what number of edge cases are we talking about? Because you guys and girls must keep track of this right how many edge cases you've actually dealt with how many peculiarities there actually are within stock it and that's just one of the in app purchase API's that you get to deal with with revenue cap. Josh Holtz: Yeah, I honestly don't know the exact number but it's probably really, really terrifying. I spend most of my time in the beginning on the SDK side. But lately I've been more on like the web API side of things. So I'm, I'm starting to see like a lot of the more like subscription stuff that we have. But yeah, like it's, it's, it's crazy how many just weird small things that are like there was complications when like you do upgrade or downgrade in a subscription group, just the way like the Apple receipt handles, though, doesn't always make it clear, like which one is really active at a time. So there is like a lot of careful, like date, math and stuff that like needs to get done around those weird subscription things, Jeroen Leenarts: I must say the documentation of revenue cap looks quite delicious. But with these pain points that we just talked about, if you would try and explain at a conference, for example, say I walk up to you at a conference and I say, Hey, Josh, why should I even consider using revenue cuts and actually pay some other party some of my good earn money to actually take care of these things? Why should I do that? What would you then tell me? Josh Holtz: That's a loaded question, I probably need to sit that person down for like a good long talk to talk about all the points. But like, at its core, like it's, it's really not fun to work on store kit and subscriptions, when you really want to be focusing on your app, and like the value you provide there. So as an owner of an app or developer of an app, or something like that, you should really be working on what your app provides. Not all of this, like technical stuff that should have already been working as you expect. So that's kind of where we jump in. And you don't need to know like how the receipts work having, like, have your own API to handle all that we take care of all that for you. You just gotta worry about creating an account, creating all of your subscriptions in the app store. And then using our SDK. And all of that is done what like you could build it yourself and have a team of like three 410 developers that helped maintain all this store kid stuff that changes all of the API's, all that but you shouldn't really have to manage, hire a team specifically to work on that subscription stuff if you don't have to. And that's where we come in. And you really don't have to pay us unless you get subscriptions. The more you make, the more we make. So we want to help our users make more because that then helps us Jeroen Leenarts: up there, you also come up with an interesting topic as well. Doesn't have new cats have a free tier available that you then only if you reach a certain amount of recurring revenue that you then start paying? Or what's the what's the what's the subscription model that you deal with, if you actually subscribe to revenue cat as a as a customer. Josh Holtz: So we have three tiers and then enterprise, which we won't discuss that one. But there yeah, there's there's free starter and Pro, the free, you can stay in until you make more than 10k per month, which my NDFs never exceeded yet. So I was heavily in the free tier. And there is the starter one which gets you like integrations and a bunch more things there. You pay us $8 For every $1,000 you make per month, which is 0.8%, which is relatively small compared to any other processing thing or anything like that. Not considering that Apple either takes 15% or 30%. So point eight seems super nice. And then the Pro is $12 a month, per every 1000. You make. So again, still relatively small, Jeroen Leenarts: you come to an interesting point, because if I actually use revenue cats, and I have paying subscribers or people paying me for in app subscriptions, the money does not flow through revenue cat, right? Josh Holtz: Correct. Yeah, it goes through Apple directly. And then revenue cat, you would pay through an invoice after that, like each month, I believe. Jeroen Leenarts: And of course revenue cat is perfectly well aware of what your monthly recurring revenue is because they can call into the App Store connect API's this this model this way across all integrations that you provide. So then I'm talking about the Play Store, the App Store, Amazon store, I think it's called stripe, you mentioned it, Josh Holtz: this is across all the stores. So for me, I just have my stuff on iOS. But if I did have a cross platform app, iOS, and Android, the total of that would be added together for my MTR. Jeroen Leenarts: So it's the total MTR across all the income streams that you're generating with the help of revenue cut, correct? Yes, yeah. And just to to go on that what's it like being a party that has integrated with revenue cat because to me, it does sound like if I integrate with revenue cat, I just want to like do the work, do the integration, and then forget about it as much as possible and just go on Developing new cool features from a product right? But of course, there will be updates, there will be upgrades, sometimes a big upgrade, like release Starkid to, for example. But What's that process like for for end users? How do you deal with those situations? Is it easy is too hard? What's it like Josh Holtz: my three initial apps were using our iOS V three, which was the Objective C one, when I joined shortly after we released V four, which was the full swift one, which was a breaking change. There were migrations involved for everybody who didn't need to upgrade. But our team, I can't take credit for it, because I joined in superlight, did a fantastic job at using all the X code, auto migration things that happened in there. So it was super easy to change the old code to the new code. And our documentation also had a full table of everything that was updated migration, I think, was as easy as it could be for most, but like that's a change. Like that probably won't happen again, for a long time. Anybody who is new will probably have a much easier time. But it actually wasn't too hard to upgrade from v3 to v4, I think you had more parts of that question, Jeroen Leenarts: what it was like to do the upgrade from stock at one, two, stock at two. for end users of revenue cap Josh Holtz: end users didn't have to do anything, it's just a toggle in the constructor of the SDK, if you'd set to true, it'll use dark it too. Otherwise, it'll use dark at one under the hood, our users don't need to know which one it's using. If they do have a preference, then they can choose when we rolled out iOS v4, we we left it as storage get one because that was the one that was battle tested the most, we didn't want to upgrade everybody to stick it to just like that, because we wanted to like get some experience out there first to make sure everything did work. Okay, so a lot of us on the team actually have apps for ourselves. So we enabled all of our apps to use store kit to to to kind of see how things worked. And we found quite a few like small weird store cut to quirks. But all of those are actually mostly fixed now. And we actually recommend now using the store get to part just because stork it too does have a lot nicer things on the inside that do make things run at a probably higher quality. But in the end of the user, they behave the exact same because that's what Jeroen Leenarts: we do. So to wrap up the topic of revenue cat as an SDK to integrate with just a one run over it. So the benefit of using a platform like revenue cat is that you don't have to deal with the complexity of the in app subscription and in app purchase logic. So you don't have to integrate yourself with socket and socket two, or socket two, I should say. And that's a benefit. Because there is actually a lot of edge cases and a lot of detail you have to get right if you are actually running in app purchase and subscription in production. And on top of that, you also get apparently, subscription metrics and a lot of information about how your app is performing. But in what way are these reports and these graphs that revenue cat supports better than what the respective app stores can provide? This is Josh Holtz: super cool. So none of my apps are actually subscription ads. They're all non consumables. So I don't get to like a lot of the cool subscription charts on my side. But I am still amazed by kind of what we offer on the App Store connect side, which I don't go to very often anymore, I probably should have before this to prepare. But you really I think See, like just the number of sales that happen, you know, you can't really like see information on your actual subscribers, like their information. But like kind of like down to like the subscriber, we offer a whole bunch of charts. And there's I think more that are always on the way. But you can see the churn how often you get on subscribers, which all subscription apps have churn, you'd probably want to try and like have the least amount as you can. But having this graph does kind of help you determine like where churn occurs, is it with new app updates, or anything like that. So you can kind of relate those things, you can get some cool charts that are how much each customer has paid over the entire time they have been subscribed to you, which is I think, one of our newest ones. And it's actually super cool to see I'm not an expert at it because my apps don't have it. And I don't work on charts. But what this chart does is you can kind of kind of see is most of your customers from long term subscriptions. And then we have realized LTV per customer, which LTV is lifetime value. So that's a super cool chart. That one is probably harder for me to explain, but it is a cool way to see how your customers have been with you and how much you have made off of them Jeroen Leenarts: explain some terminology there because my understanding of churn is that there's a number of people that you gain as customers each time period. And the churn rate is the number of customers that you lose each period. And as long as you're As you're gaining more customers comparatively to the numbers that you're losing, you're growing your revenue as an business, if you are able to decrease the churn rate, then people will stick with you as a subscriber longer. And that will also increase the average total lifetime value of your customers. Right? Correct. Yeah. And total lifetime value of a customer is basically all the payments that they did to you all added together. And then that laid out on Okay, they've been with you for 12 months, and they gave you X amount of money. Josh Holtz: Correct? Yeah, podcast is not the best like format to display these charts. But I think it'd be super helpful to like, see stuff like this. And the App Store connect doesn't really provide charts Jeroen Leenarts: up took us up to this, because one of the things last time I looked at App Store Connect is also a while ago. But if I'm correct, App Store connect only shows you the total subscription counts that you have. And you cannot attribute how long a subscription has been with you. And with revenue catch, you can actually see on the subscriber level when they got involved with your products when they churn so when they stopped a subscription, and what of this specific individual has been the total value in their entire lifecycle? And of course, you can also see if they come back to you at a later stage again, right, Josh Holtz: exactly, yeah, yeah. And I don't think I don't think the App Store provides anything close to that it doesn't really help you grow or improve at all. Jeroen Leenarts: Are you aware of some specific things that you can discover by looking at charts in such a way as revenue cuts provides some, this Josh Holtz: would probably be an easier question, if I actually had a subscription app that I could use these charts for myself. But we do also have charts that are for trial conversions, which are probably also super nice to have, which I don't think appstore really provides those charts as well. So like, that's something that I plan to use in my app that I'll be releasing next month, kind of seeing like which trials work the best and kind of experimenting with those. Jeroen Leenarts: I think one of the hardest things to do when working with a subscription based app is first of all, gaining new subscribers. But then on top of that, hanging on to your subscribers, right? Josh Holtz: Yeah. And there are like different apps categories that that are expected to have more churn than others. So like a children's app will probably have more churn because kids aren't always interested in the same thing for a long amount of time churn in that kind of app might be okay, were in a app, that's I guess, more VPN or something like that, that when you probably expect to have less churn and you kind of see those then in charts super, Jeroen Leenarts: are you saying that you can compare your own performance on the category level with the entire user base of revenue cat, Josh Holtz: you can not. But if you do have multiple apps, you can compare those together. If they're Jeroen Leenarts: in the same account, you can plot them on the same canvas? Yep. Okay, that's actually interesting. So Josh Holtz: you can split the charts by by app by country by App Store, first purchase month by Apple Search Ads campaign. So you can kind of break it down and kind of see like how different aspects kind of change the subscriptions. So like, you might have more churn on a Google Play app versus in App Store app, or your apple search campaign subscriptions might have more churn than normal, and you kind of can compare and see all that stuff, which is also super cool. Jeroen Leenarts: We talked a lot about revenue cat, what it does, what kinds of reports it can provide you also, we talked a little bit about what the cost of integrating with revenue Curtis both in time, and then if you actually have subscribers in in actual money, which is not too bad, really? I think because at the start of the conversation, you said it took you like for the first time like a couple hours and then the second time yet to integrate Dr. UKCAT. It was like an hour. And and cost wise, you're we're talking about less than a percent of your of your income really, that you generate through revenue cat. Yeah. So if I understand this correctly, people should be using revenue cap because you will get less bucks in your implementation costs. You don't have to reinvent the wheel all the time. That's been done like million times before. And really well at revenue cap. You get awesome charts and great reporting on top of a way better than what the app stores provide you with. So it just works. It saves tons of time. And there's a really great free entry tier for people to get acquainted with the revenue cuts platform. So it's basically free to use up to $10,000 monthly recurring revenue you can make like $120,000 a year and not have to pay a single penny to revenue cat to be able to use the service provided you don't pass the Yeah, it's kind of crazy, isn't it? I just wish I would even get close to That's income with an app. Josh Holtz: Yeah, my apps definitely don't make that. Yeah, I definitely fall in the free tier still. Watch it is what it is. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah. But that's that's the thing with with side projects, it's you do them for the fun of it and not per se. That's a that's a you have to replace your income. Oh, yeah. That also explains why you actually work at revenue cap, because you have to have an income regardless. Exactly. Yes. What's it like working in revenue cap? Because they are they are remote only company or what's the deal there? Josh Holtz: Yeah, we are remote only I think we had technically had an office up until beginning of this year, but nobody actually worked out of it. But yeah, we're fully remote. We have about like 55 employees now. 40, when I started, and it's amazing place everybody is super excited about everything they do. Everybody is super friendly, super nice, always wants to help each other out a lot of excitement for what we build and who we are hoping for. But at the same time, it's also a very like nobody's overworked, it's very, you come first, which is super amazing. You don't have to work nine to five you work, what works best for you. Everything is a sync, because we're all over the world. So there's there's no really real need to work at the exact time every day as everybody else because everybody is always staggered. But the asynchronous of it is actually super cool. Because everything is there's like nothing ever lost in zoom calls or anything like that, because everything is kind of written down everywhere. And it just makes for a really nice place to create awesome developer tools. We just want to make help developers make more anything we can do to help that is kind of what our goal is. Jeroen Leenarts: So we talked a lot about what revenue cat is, as a product, what revenue cat makes easy for you, as an app developer, or web developer or whatever platform you choose to integrate with revenue cap. But of course, you're dealing with your own back end, right, because I'm building an app and I have my back end. And I want to use revenue cap for my for my subscriptions or in app purchase. But I want to get connected to the to the status of my app users, right, I want to know what subscription and what in app purchase they have available. I want to know basically what level of service I'm supposed to provide from my back ends to their individual apps. And I've seen on the website of revenue cat has a section called integrations. And when I look at that, I just see like a whole bunch of different service providers that revenue cat integrates with. And there's like this big headline above it saying sync data everywhere you need it to. So what's the deal with these integrations, Josh Holtz: a lot of people like might have their their preferred data analytics place to do all that work. And we can take all of our information and pass it on to other tools like Mixpanel, or amplitude or something like that, if you do need to do a bit more like analytic, heavy number crunching type of stuff. On your side, we offer a bunch of integrations that you can take purchase information, customer info and move that from our side into other providers. So there are attribution providers integrations, which are more of like the ad level type of things. So we offer support for adjust appsflyer branch Facebook ads, just name a few. But then we do offer third party integrations, which are the ones that happen, like when a purchase would happen, we would pass that information off to amplitude braise Mixpanel, to kind of combine with our customers other app analytics, if they are storing things over on those services. Jeroen Leenarts: And that means that you can get information out of revenue cuts on the state have a specific customer, that they actually became a subscriber or whether or not to renew, when they unsubscribe if they have billing issues, anything like that. Yeah, correct. Yeah. So that allows for a lot of different things and very much a lot of creativity for people integrating with revenue cut if they need to, because I'm looking at these logos. And I'm also seeing things like Amazon serves that integrate with Google Cloud Firebase. So even if you have like your entire back end deployed and setup with one of these cloud providers, or even if you just integrate with a web hook feature of revenue cap, you can just might easily on the back ends do some additional work if somebody decides to subscribe or change their subscription status within the app. Right? Josh Holtz: Agreed. Yeah, so it does provide a little bit more power on top of what we already offer. Jeroen Leenarts: And does does revenue cap beyond these integrations also have like a server level API available as well, so that you because these are these are things that actively call out of the revenue cat system, outwards to service providers or through a web hook. But direct net has also an API available that you can call on to like do some processing if you need to. So if a customer comes at you back and you just want to check the Upstate, do we have subscription revenue cat? Yes, they have? Yes, no, they don't. You can, you can just query those kinds of things as well. Right. Yeah, Josh Holtz: yeah. We do have a REST API that has been out for a while, we do want to update it make like a better one. So that is something that we are looking to do. But yeah, there is a recipe out there right now that is in our docs, you can get subscribers status update some of you need to. And that's kind of how our customers would use us through their API is to call hours just to get those status updates and Jeroen Leenarts: things about these integrations and these these API calls that you can do, are there still areas that you think that revenue cat has some work to do to make sure that the whole breadth of use cases is covered? Or do you think the whole platform is now flexible enough to if you can come up with a use case involving subscriptions or in app purchases? Revenue cat has your back? Josh Holtz: Yeah, so I think we're gonna get does a pretty good job right now, there's definitely more that we can do. We do have an integration with super wall which does pay wall user interfaces, which is something that I think we're probably trying to stay away from trying to stay away from the creating the paywall UI ourselves, but the super wall integration works with our platform to build upon what we have to offer, like nice predesign paywalls. To us, I think our goal is to is to keep creating this platform that people can build things on top of Jeroen Leenarts: sounds good, I think just to really start wrapping things up. How do I sign up for revenue cat? Where do I go, Josh Holtz: revenue cat.com is the place to go, there should be a sign up button. Nice, big top right, and also middle left, definitely click those. And it should be pretty easy to get on boarded. The documentation is great. It does a great job of stepping you through all the things you have to do with the screenshots for all the different app stores that you want to add how to configure everything. Yeah, it's it's it shouldn't be as easy as that. And Jeroen Leenarts: is it easy to get onto revenue cat if you already have something existing? So if you have existing subscriptions, or you have like a different platform provider that does similar things to revenue cat if they even exist? Yeah, so Josh Holtz: our docs do provide some information for migration from other places, our team also does a bunch of imports as well, if you do have like a really large base that you do need to import. So if you have like a nice small existing subscription app, our Doc's should be enough to help you onboard that if you are like a larger enterprise, we do help with imports as well. Jeroen Leenarts: All right, that's that's good to know. One of the things with the subscriptions is that if you want to transfer them, you want to make sure that you do it, right, because you want to keep providing service to your end users. Correct? Yeah. So it really seems like revenue cap has covered all the bases that you that you need if you're if you're dealing with subscription and in app purchases. So yeah, sign up at revenue cat.com. And do check them out. The free tier is, in my mind, amazing, especially if you're an indie developer, you can go a really long way before you start getting invoices from revenue cuts in your inbox. But then I think once you reach the level of that you actually have to pay revenue cuts, you'll gladly pay the bill which is, which is minor compared to the best bill to pay. Yeah, it's minor compared to the income that you're already generating by that true. And I really think that shows what revenue stance is towards small and indie developers, they love for you to just get started and to just learn the ropes of doing a subscription based or in average based business model. And then if you just happen to be taking off with your products, then revenue cat will have your back but then, at some point, they do hope that you're successful, and that she's perfectly happy to just pay them a small amount for the awesomeness that you've been getting till that point. Yes, well said