Mechanical keyboards

Jeroen Leenarts: I'm sitting here with, with Josh Franklin and Tommy. And for some reason, I decided that it was a good idea to talk about a specific subject. But before we dive in, I just like everybody to do a short intro on themselves. And I'd say, Josh, can you kick things off a bit with Josh Holtz: who you are Schultz, I've been the lead maintainer of Heslin tools. For two, two years now, I've been a core contributor for five or six. It's my full time nine to five job, maintaining that doing all the PR is releases issues, and all the other Fastlane tools associated with the main Fastlane project. And then, I do a lot of indie dev, indie dev myself supporting other indie developers, and generally just starting Xcode. Apps pretty much every week. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay, and Franklin, can you tell a little bit about yourself? Franklin Byaruhanga: My name is Franklin Bianca. I'm from Kampala, Uganda. And currently am I is trying to be a miracle engineer. But I switched to iOS development about two years ago. So I mean, a career switch. And that's, that's that about about it about myself? Jeroen Leenarts: Okay, and Tommy, what what can you share already? Tommy Prezioso Jr: Hi, my name is Tommy. And I'm from Queens, New York. And I am a iOS developer at scheduler city. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay. Should I do this too? Yeah, I guess why not? Um, my name is Ron. I'm from the Netherlands. I actually run this podcast. And these three people were crazy enough to join me for this recording. Yeah, I do iOS development, as well do some podcasts, wrote some books on some topic. And currently, I'm transferring a lot of information at my current day job. Because November 1, I'm starting at another one. So crazy times. But what's interesting here is that the four of us, there's actually some things that we have in common. One of them is something iOS development related. Because we all work in the Apple ecosystem and write code for those platforms, we could dive into that and how we write Swift code. And that will open up Xcode and do all kinds of crazy things with Fuse, a few controls and whatnot. But there's something else that we actually share as well. And that's has something to do with as very specific and personal input device. Because we all have a keyboard, and what's so personal to keep what's so personable about keyboards. It's the thing that we work with, like, I don't know, how many hours each day. And basically, I don't know, touching somebody else's keyboard grossed me out. I don't know why it is. But I like to clean it before I touch somebody, somebody else's keyboard. But what's also interesting is that the four of us, we also have like a mechanical keyboard that we like to like to work with, for instance. Yeah, yeah, it's, it's one of those things like you buy one, all of a sudden, you have like a couple. But just to kick things off a little bit. In the call, we have somebody with, with a moon lander, we have somebody with ultimate hacker keyboards, we have somebody with an Atrius, two of us actually have an IQ next keyboards, there's an ergo docks in room somewhere as well, I have to leave even the custom built one. So yeah, most of them are actually pre built keyboards that you can just order off the shelf somewhere. And, but it's very specific, because if you would just put these keyboards and I will link them in the show notes. If you would just put them together in on the table, you would be looking at it and you would say like, what the heck am I looking at? So I'm just to get started, Franklin, you have like the the ultimate hacker keyboard? Why this specific keyboard for you? Franklin Byaruhanga: Well, for me, these specific codes, basically, for two reasons. One is the split keys because I really like that. And then secondly, the the feel and the touch when it when you what when you're typing the feedback in the feedback that you get from typing it makes it feels so good, especially when you're writing code compared to like the traditional Apple keyboard that's on the MacBook Pro. So that's why I particularly use this. I feel my efficiencies is improved and also the speed is usually improved. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay, and Tommy, what what's your story with your keyboard because you're like a recent introduction to the space right? Tommy Prezioso Jr: Yeah, no, definitely. Previously before this one, I had a Das Keyboard five Q, which I liked a lot, but it was a full keyboard and I have a very tight working space. So I went down to a smaller layout. I just love the mechanical feel of, you know, the this particular keyboard. And that's, yeah, that's kind of really why I went to this form factor, just mostly the field. And yeah, just switching it up from different switches. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay, because you actually mentioned something interesting there already, which is layout. And Franklin already mentioned something about the field, and you mentioned it as well. So we're gonna dive into that as well, a little bit, but we'll do that later. So Josh, what's your keyboards and what's your daily driver. Josh Holtz: So right now, it's the moon lander. And I got started off on Ergo docks easy one, probably like five or six years ago. And I really got that one just because of the of the, of the split the split pneus of it, I needed something that was a little bit better for my posture. Then, like Apple Magic keyboard thing I was using felt like, like I was my, I was kind of like, condensed, and I felt very cramped, so I wasn't able to like spread my arms out. So I got the Ergo docks, easy back then. But it was a little bit too, too clicky sounding. So I want something little bit quieter. So then I switched to the custom built Ergo docks, which had some silent red switches, which is much better for small office environment, or working from home. But then I wanted something that was a bit more prettier, and had a little bit more clicky sound to it. So I landed back on the moon lander as my most recent one. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay. That sounds very interesting, because especially the moon lander, it has some distinct, like, I don't know, James Bond kind of ring to it, it to me, maybe some NASA as well, people should definitely look up the things that we're talking about, because they probably some people go what extra people actually buy these. So what I'm using at the moment right now is called an Atrius. Keyboard. It's built by keyboard IO. And that's, it's a 44 key layout. So what I like about it is that I don't have to move my hands at all, if I'm typing, typing, and I get to all the functionality of the keyboard by switching layers. So I can just toggle a switch and then everything on the keyboard changes. It does different things. Input wise, but it makes that me. I don't have to move my hands at all. I did twice. Yeah. Josh Holtz: What is the standard number of keys on like a normal keyboard? Oh, no, Jeroen Leenarts: that number. It's like 104 or 105? Ish, I think. But that's but that's if you have it included with the distinct discrete numpad on the right side. Okay. Okay. And if you have like, an 80% layout, I think that's or 70 That's what the keyboard Tommy has 10 You're talking about, then you're looking at? I think somewhere in the range of I don't know. 80 keep 80 G's someone's Josh Holtz: yours is 44 Yeah. 44 Tommy Prezioso Jr: That's a lot it's so small. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, and but the switch that I'm using the at with it is are actually killed box wide switches and I really love the kill switch the clicky ones, okay. Because because they actually click when you press the button and they click when you release the button. So just pressing once gives you twice the amount of joy in my opinion. But we'll dig into that as well. Because Josh already mentioned I have linear reds and I have basically clicky whites by kale. And Tommy what's what's on your keyboards in sensor switches? Tommy Prezioso Jr: I believe Yeah, it's cherry Brown. I have Jeroen Leenarts: and Franklin they can't do you know what's on your keyboard? Franklin Byaruhanga: Yeah, it's a Cherry MX Brown. The clicker one, but I've also ordered for the silent one. I want the one that's in the other is Jeroen Leenarts: thinking really hard. They didn't hear us, Franklin, do you know what switches you have on your keyboard? Franklin Byaruhanga: Yes, I'm saying Cherry MX Brown Can you hear me? I don't have Jeroen Leenarts: internet connectivity. But he Yeah. Do you have silent browns on the Franklin Byaruhanga: Cherry MX Brown. Jeroen Leenarts: Now your we can hear you but there is some latency. Okay. Cherry MX Brown. Yeah. So that's pretty much the same switch that that Tommy has on his keyboard. And we're talking about all these switches and things but let's Let's just unpack that a little bit. So, there are three types of switches you can have on the keyboards and who have you can tell me which three main types there are. Josh Holtz: I'm looking at the Internet right now. And clicky linear and tactile. Yeah, I actually no clicking with a type. I knew I knew the other two. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay, well, let's, let's dive into that. Because linear is like, you have a key, you press it, and it just travels. If you have tactile then there's like this little bump that you feel somewhere down the, the press of the key. And if you have a clicky switch, it's also a tactile switch. But it has an added, in my opinion benefit that has like this mechanical spring click built into the switch. And I do know people can find it super annoying if you use it in an office environment. But those are the three main types. And then you have with tactile and linear keys, there's also subtype which are called silence, and then there's some dampening in the switch. And but it does make the switch feel a bit mushy and mushy in the sense that it's I don't know, it changes the feel of the switch. But what we all already, I think mentions is that what we really liked about keywords is that they're mechanical. And mechanical, basically means that there's like these, these switches involved, which are keyboard. Franklin already, quite nicely. told us why he likes to feel it makes him feel quicker with the keyboards. And does that apply to you as well told me when using your keyboard? Tommy Prezioso Jr: Yeah, I think it definitely helps me. Especially when coding type quicker or just have better touch typing, like I can kind of feel the keys, I know where everything kinda is. And, yeah, that's definitely a huge benefit. And, you know, something that you use constantly on a day to day basis is just knowing your tool as well as possible so and getting a good feel for it. Jeroen Leenarts: And, and Josh, what's, what's the deal with you then for the switches, or is more the split layout more important to you. Josh Holtz: The split layout is most important to me, actually, I have three different kinds of switches. So like, I do prefer some over the others depending on kind of how I'm working where I'm working. But the main reason that I got these were just because of of the split. But I think out of my switches, I have the I've cherry browns on my Ergo docks easy. I have the cherry silent reds on my custom Ergo docks. And then I have the say kale, kale, I have the silvers on my moon lander. And I think out of all those the silvers are probably my favorite. Because I can, I can make them have kind of a silent aspect if I want to. So if like the kids sleeping, or I'm on a phone call, I can I can still like make them work by typing very gently and not having a click. Or if I want to like go ham on some app or something and just like pound her on the keys, I can actually like feel like like in like, there's like a pretty decent sound there too. But I'm also pretty happy with the silent reds, like they're they actually are super quiet. They do kind of have that mushy feel where you do kind of kind of lose track of like, where the keys are where you're typing. But I mean, it's not it's not end of the world. And the quiet aspect of them is definitely worth it in my opinion. Yeah, you Jeroen Leenarts: don't have to thinking of the keycaps. Exactly when you press them fully. So one thing that we also already mentioned this is layouts. And why I did notice that with the keyboards that all of us are using is that they're relatively small in comparison to a full size keyboard. Because if you look in for instance, at Franklin sir keyboard, that's a keyboard that doesn't have a numpad. It has. By well, it doesn't even have function keys I think it has. So how do you get to the buttons that are not on your keyboard? Franklin, how do you do that? How do you manage, Franklin Byaruhanga: in my case, what the keyboard does, it actually has modes. So it has mouse mode, where the keyboard can operate as a mouse, then it also has other function modes that can activate the Function keys. The function keys are always like at the bottom. So one key can have three different purposes, depending on which mode you're in. So that's the real cool thing. Just press just change the mode that you're in, and then the keyboard will respond to whatever you want. So if you want function keys, you go to the function key mode. You want a number pad you go to the number number key number number keyboard mode, so each mode changes And then you can also change the layout, whether you want quality, or alderbrook, or whatever type of keyboard layout you want, there is an app that comes with the keyboard that enables you to change different layouts. So it's quite customizable to different do a lot of degrees. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay, and okay, so you can remap all the keys on your keyboard to your heart's content and just make it do whatever you want it to do. Right? Yes. Okay, cool. And, Josh, your case with your keyboards is any in any way programmable as well? Or what's the deal there? Josh Holtz: Yeah, so they're all completely configurable with what's the tool called? The moonlander. When website has a tool that you can use online to configure all the keys, different modes and all that and then install it directly on it. And it actually works for all three. But two of my keyboards have key or not. Keyless a blank. What do you call them? blinkies? I guess keycaps? Yeah, yeah. So two of them are blank. So those were kind of fun to learn on, because I didn't actually know where anything was. So I kind of went in really deep, but my moonlander does actually have have have them on it. But yeah, everything's configurable. I pretty much kept everything standard. When they came on, I think I may have switched. Where some some Alt keys were the Command key for Mac. I actually have a macro set on one where it'll do the emoji schmoozer, which is what like Command Shift Spacebar. So I have one key that actually does all three of those at once. So it's kind of fun, what you can configure. I have one key that actually does the T mux. Command as well, which is like, control, Control B. That one I don't use as often. But I do I do like how how configurable and customizable they are. I did have a layer that allowed me to do like very Unknown: Warcraft, Josh Holtz: specific keys. So it was very, like game game oriented, but only for the left hand. So I had like all of all the controls mapped. It was pretty nerdy. I don't run that anymore. But you can do a lot of crazy weird, weird stuff. But I, I do have a shared layout of my keyboard that I can link in the notes. Oh, it's kind of what what I normally run. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay. Yeah, cuz you, Franklin and Josh both mentioned the aspect of layers because I know Thomas keyboard doesn't have that. But that's, that's more like straight up keyboard that just has an enjoyable typing experience. But with the keyboard that I have, because it only has like 44 keys I I just have to use layers. If I want to do anything meaningful. If I just want to type a bracket I need to do like switch layer and type it. But I am taking notes here because having a single key to get the emoji thing in your face. That's That's so good. That's so good. Yeah, because I want to type more emojis more is always better. Josh Holtz: I didn't know I wanted that until I got my my MacBook Air M one and there's the emoji emoji world one on the bottom left. Yeah, I started using that all the time. And I got back to here and I'm like, I have to hit like three keys like in this weird hand and position. I'm like, I don't like that. So I was like, I wonder if I can combine them into one turns out you can and it's it's it's amazing. Jeroen Leenarts: And with if you're here all of this Tommy is this like it doesn't make you jealous with your keyboard that you think I need to buy another one that's programmable. Maybe I Tommy Prezioso Jr: I've actually looked into that. I was actually looking into the launch by system 76 I don't know if you've ever seen that keyboard. But I can say that again. I want to try lawn. It's called launch and the company is system 76 There are Linux based company, and they they have a programmable keyboard that I was actually looking into. But currently I do not need a keyboard. I'm trying my best urge to not buy a dual. You Josh Holtz: always need a new keyboard. Jeroen Leenarts: keyboard or less. It's always better. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Tommy Prezioso Jr: Like, you just use one for each situation. Jeroen Leenarts: Yep. Yeah, and the thing with keyboard says that you can never have enough because I don't know why I can never have enough but you can never have enough trust me. Because I actually have like, an A keyboard IO model 100 through the Kickstarter if it on order, and that's also a split K split layout keyboard, Josh. And it's, it's more like a little bit more in the direction of Kinesis keyboard so that it has like the scoops structure for your keys. And it's like a wooden enclosure, and it's like, crazy stuff you can get on Indiegogo. Yeah, that's like a crazy contraption. Really? Josh Holtz: What if I, what if I buy a new keyboard while recording this bug? Jeroen Leenarts: I don't know if it'll be like January before it arrives. So I'm still waiting for mine. But I'm on the topic of keyboards. What's interesting is that, Franklin, Josh and me, we both have somewhat of a split layout keyboard. And Tommy has as a regular layout keyboards in the sense that all the keyboards are in one element, and they're not split apart for each hand. Due to I don't know, ergonomics, I think they always do it or Yeah, yeah. He's still in the caveman phase of keyboards. But now, but what you didn't mention back there, at your introduction told me is that the layout of your keyboard, as your previous keyboard was a Das Keyboard. And while most software developers they are aware of the dust company and the keyboards that they create, but it's also a mechanical keyboard, right, a Das Keyboard? Tommy Prezioso Jr: Yes, it's also a mechanical and the the one that I had, which was the five Q, the whole selling point was to have like little apps in it. So like you can get notifications and keys would blink depending on certain things that would happen on your, on your computer itself, and being able to program the LEDs and kind of get what, you know, Josh was talking about more of like, programming keys to do things, but it was more of actually having programs running and doing things Jeroen Leenarts: that I now I need to look this thing up Q five Did you say? Yeah, Tommy Prezioso Jr: or five Q five Q? Five Q? Josh Holtz: I've never seen this one. Tommy Prezioso Jr: Yeah. Five Q. Yeah, it's it's pretty crazy. Jeroen Leenarts: Let's see, five q.oh. It has colors. It doesn't go is all on the screen is really bright. So okay, so with it, you can actually, you can program sort of like small things into it. Yeah. And you and you can configure the look of the Yeah, you can configure the color of the RGB LEDs. So it's not like a macro pet like thing that you can actually have LCDs in your buttons. Yeah, or in a row of buttons. But it's still fully programmable. You can Josh Holtz: display your four day weather forecast. Tommy Prezioso Jr: Yeah, it's it's kind of weird, but it's it depends on the color that you give it so like you would be able to see what it is Josh Holtz: Yellowstone, pink cloud blue rain, Red Storm, that wow, Jeroen Leenarts: that's a they went all out with a marketing page. It even it even has an astronaut on it. Oh, it's a movie. Oh, well, that. Let's not click that right now while we're recording. But you can do this with my moon lander. Oh, yeah, you can program you can macro as well, right? Yeah, Josh Holtz: I think I can upload. I wrote some custom firmware for one of my Ergo docs, like the actual like C C++ that you put on it. I wouldn't do that again. But I think I think I could do that with this. I don't want to break it. But this This actually seems pretty cool. Jeroen Leenarts: So but what I wants to get at is that Tommy has like a keyboard that has a smaller form factor. So the keyboard that Tommy asked is actually a keyboard that I think it's it's a 70% keyboard because it has the condensed navigation cluster. So you can imagine if you look at your if you look at a regular keyboard with a numpad attached, you would just take a big scissors and just cut that right half off and then take a hammer and then smack bit on the right edge a bit more to like make it smaller even. But what you end up with this is a keyboard that's That's hardly any be wider than the, than what you need for just the QWERTY layout and without any additional footprints to the right. So that allows you to probably have your, you need less space, and you can have your mouse really close in. And who uses the numpad? Anyway, right? Yeah, Tommy Prezioso Jr: that was that was kind of my thing like I, I've fairly never really used my my number pad with the Das Keyboard that I had. So I was just like, I'm not using it, it's just taking up a little more desk space. Plus, it was always off center for me, because it was a full size keyboard. So I just hated having that like weird thing off to the right. You know, my mouse was just that much further away. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay, but what make you pick the acutonics keyboard, because it's, it's quite a hefty price for a keyboard at that charge for it. Because it's a, it's a basic keyboard. But I know because I have a similar model as you have. It's very well built. And it basically has all the features that your basic mechanical keyboards should have. So it has like hot swappable switches, you have a wide variety of switch, you can actually order on it. And there's all kinds of dampening within the structure of the keyboard built in as well. So it's not like two aluminium slabs with keys in it that rattles all over the place. But what made you pick this specific keyboard? Tommy Prezioso Jr: To be honest, it was it like you like you were saying it you know, there's so many mechanical keyboards out there these by you know, I quinic. Sir, I forget how you say it. But basically, they they just have like a very unique visual look to them. And I think that was really a drawing point, especially the particular one that I have the AD, AD explorer, it has a very old school, like, I don't know, like late ad is like early 90s kind of keyboard look. And I just fell in love. I've always fallen in love with like a older style looking keyboard. So this was a as much as an aesthetic purchase as it was a functional version. Jeroen Leenarts: So so let me guess it match the color scheme of your desk environment. Right, definitely. Also an important aspect. So back to you, Franklin. Your keyboard has something interesting as well, because it's a split layout keyboard. So you can actually take two halves apart, you have you have a cluster for left hand and a cluster for your right hand. But you can also attach something to this keyboard so that you have like it's actually also your your mouse or your trackball at the same time. Right. So what's going on there, you can attach modules to it that allow you to have a different experience with it. And I think you have a trackball attached to it right? Franklin Byaruhanga: Yeah, basically, it can work in two modes that with the split mode, whereby you can attach a custom modules. So each module is very small, I don't know if I can show this here like see small custom modules like this, you can attach these four keys in size, he has about three keys inside, and all of them are programmable. And then you can also have another module like this one that carries a trackpad. So if you don't, if you don't use the module, you can then have the keyboard joined as one. So it becomes a smaller keyboard footprint just like this. Now it's joined as one keyboard, or you can then split it apart. And then Jeroen Leenarts: it's actually really smart device that is supporting there. Franklin Byaruhanga: Except you can use it separately, or you can then join it together as one keyboard. So it depends on what you want use it for. Jeroen Leenarts: Wow, that's really nice man. But what made you choose for the ultimate hacking keyboard specifically was it's just, I don't know why? Because it's a very distinct style of keyboards. So you must have had some thoughts before you actually Franklin Byaruhanga: was hunting for a keyboard, a mechanical keyboard. Then I came across the word do they have this Kickstarter program, the first version I was was on a Kickstarter kind of program. So then a beta, I joined the Kickstarter, I It almost took three years before it was delivered. So it took a really long time to get the keyboard. The modules just arrived now, which is five years after I ordered them. So if you order them you have to wait a little bit of a while but they took a took a while to get me the modules and everything. But it was just a look of a mechanical keyboard and this one, just look at everything that I wanted straightness, if I wanted it or joined if I didn't want it, and then the customized modules which you could then order because I'm really the fun of the don't use the mouse if you don't have to. So that's what I really liked about the keyboard you could turn on mouse mode and then use the mouse on the keyboard itself without ever leaving the keyboard itself. Jeroen Leenarts: Oh, wow, that's interesting as well, because I know that with my Atreus, I can also program it to have like mouse buttons. And I tried it, but it's like, super, super slow. And I really have to, yeah, Josh Holtz: do the same to and I know, I can't, I can't do it. I tried one day, and I'm like it. It's good. In theory, if I lost my mouse or my mouse died, I think I could get a like, I could, I could use it. But no, it's not great. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, it's, it's, it's interesting, because I'm still discovering things about my keyboard. And I want to do so that's like, what's interesting about the keyword that I'm actually using here is that it has the firmware is actually Arduino based. So it's fully open source. And there's like an Arduino chip, running the entire thing internally. And there's all kinds of things I can program with it. And it has these distinct names, but they have to look that up, actually. But it means that I press a button. And if I hold it, it gets different function, for example, and I can switch layers, and I can, I think they call a tap dance that I can do on the keyboard. And if I press key, once, it does one thing, if I press it twice, it does something else. And if I press three times, it does even something else. So all kinds of craziness. So I tried it as well with putting the the shift modifiers under my J and F keys on my home keys. So that if I wanted to type shift it, I could just punch down on J and then press the key that I want. And then it would be it would be the capsure version. And if I just tap the J key without like doing it in a strange way, I would just type A J. And if we want to do a capital J, I would just press F and then J, all these kinds of crazy things you can do. But then it turns out that in some cases, it's not very convenient, especially if you're using if you're in VI or something. So that those are a bit of the limitations that I'm running into that if you're just typing, it's fine. But then if you want to do really like terminal stuff, then you run into issues all of a sudden. So I'm still trying to find ways to get around that. But I haven't dive, I didn't dive into the real experimentation with layouts and layers too much or really. So we talked about layouts a little bit, just to just to close that off. There's also another different aspects of layouts, that is very important, because we have a clear 5050 split on that, actually, because Franklin and Tommy they have a keyboard that has like a regular layout that you all know from your keyboard. So that means that the cue button is a little bit to the left, if you then compare to the A button. So it's I don't know what's the name for this, but it's like, it's like tilted a little bit or like offset a little bit. But the keyboards that me and Josh are using the they're what's called columnar. And that means that the, the WS x buttons, look at your keyboards now people, they're actually right above each other. So why do people choose a keyboard like that? Josh? Why would you want to have a columnar layout keyboard? Josh Holtz: Fun fact, I didn't actually know that the queue is normally offset and stuff like that. So apparently, it does not matter to me at all. And I apparently also don't have any issues when I switch between like this and my MacBook. So I guess I guess for me, they're they're all the same, the keys are generally in the right spot. But I feel like this is gonna be a just a guess here is that because my keyboard is split, is that the is that the column offset probably doesn't matter because I can kind of tilt the keyboard however I want, where they still may feel offset, even though they don't line up offset physically on the keyboard. Okay, so yeah, that's, that's my guess that's my guess. Okay, well, Jeroen Leenarts: I can tell you a little bit about why I prefer the columnar layout, it just, I can just stretch and pull in my finger and I land on a button and I don't have to like move sideways with that sort of dexterity that you need in your fingers is way less because it's just a matter of stretching on stretching, your fingers are curling curling your fingers. And what I really like about it is that at the end of the day, my hands they just feel less tired, because I don't have to do the delicate sideways motion with my fingers. And apparently that's also one of the things that one of the reasons that you that you might want to use a columnar layout and actually, it's a layout that I don't know I really liked it and I actually have issues switching back to a regular keyboard nowadays. slower, Franklin Byaruhanga: less efficient. I was wondering. So if you're using column layout, does the muscle memory is it still the same, because when you're typing your hands to move towards the side? Jeroen Leenarts: Well, it's that that's the thing. The there is some muscle memory involved in my case. So I had to really learn to type on this different keyboard. Especially because I had to like remember where all kinds of buttons were that were not on my regular layout. But also just finding the keys just, you know, typing a word, it just felt different. And if I now switch back to a regular keyboard, then I'm okay. But I do notice that my fingers, they tend to land a little bit on on the wrong keys. And that's not a problem, because you don't, it doesn't register key presses. But I do notice it when I switch back. But I actually have noticed that with this layout of the keyboard, because my touch typing has improved significantly, is that even on a regular keyboard, it feels weird for me, but my words per minute is like higher than it used to be. Because for some reason I type more. Well, while my form of typing is more correct, so to speak. So yeah, I do like it. And I do. Yeah, I do enjoy using this keyboard. And it's very portable. So it's the most one of the most portable mechanical keyboards that you can get, I think. And yeah, with a columnar layout, it's just, it was interesting to see that Josh and I have this specific layout, and that Franklin and Tommy don't have this specific layout. So speaking about layouts, what I did want to mention this, that layouts are most often expressed in percentages. So you have like a 100% keyboard, then you have like the regular size with the numpad attached, and it progressively gets less and less and less. And I actually have a keyboard if they would attach a percentage to it. I have a 40% keyboard. And if you have a split layout keyboard like like Josh, they just say it's a split keyboard. And yeah, so but just look into these things. And it's very interesting to see how many different styles of keyboards there actually are. And then I wanted to switch to switches a little bit. So we already mentioned what switches each of us are using and what styles of mate what main styles of switches are available. But does do all of you have like hot swappable keyboards. Josh Holtz: Yes. And no my moon lander I can I can hot swap the switches on the first version of my ergodox Easy does not have hot swappable switches. The newer version does so I was stuck with my MX browns on that one. And then I soldered the switches to the actual PCB on my other Ergo docks. So I mean, they're not they're not hot swappable, I could probably like, switch. I wanted to take some time. Yeah, but it was a pretty scary process. So I'm just not gonna try and touch that one or break that one. Jeroen Leenarts: So but what made you decide that you want to build your own keyboard 10 Josh Holtz: I like making things difficult on myself. And that was, that was that was kind of kind of the decision. I mean, I I've been a subscriber of our Slack slash mechanical keyboards, or whatever it is, for lots of years now and I've been like wanting to kind of take a stab at building my own. And I've done quite a bit of like, side project electrical, putting together were kind of just for fun, but this was probably the biggest project I've ever done. And kind of just, I just wanted a hardware project and one that actually like had steps that I could follow and not just come up with one on my own. So it was more or less have a hardware project that got me a keyboard in the end. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay, so what would you say that if you if somebody wants to take a stab at I don't know, PCB soldiering and just like some crafts work with clear steps involved with a keyboard be like a good first project or is it a bit much Josh Holtz: um, it was probably a bit much because it there are a lot of different places to solder and no one like connected keys to each other and like you like I'm kind of mean to as well like, I might press a little hard sometimes. So like, you do have to have like, a pretty like good understanding How to do it correctly. So you don't like, like, I think I think I broke the G key after like the first day. So I like it. It wasn't it. I don't know, I didn't have have enough on it too much. I don't know what exactly broke. But you kind of have to have like patience and debugging skills. So if somebody didn't want to do it, probably don't come to me for help. Because I also don't really know what I'm doing. I feel like I just got lucky that it did mostly work. The first try. I did the the place that I got the the the PCB from actually did solder some of the stuff on an already so it wasn't like a fully blank one. I just had to solder the keys on. I had an option to solder I think some other resistors or transistors on it. I don't know what they're called. It's been a while since I looked. But like that would have made it probably like four times as much work. And those are a lot smaller. And I didn't want to do that much work. So I kind of like halfway cheated, and bought the one that was somewhat pre done. But it was still a fun experience. But obviously, when I wanted my next one, I ordered it as is because that was too much work. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay, yeah. So I actually that's an interesting thing that you mentioned there is that I don't know, there's something with software developers that do the typing. And they're like, I don't know, they get into the zone. And they're like, Yeah, I'm coding. I'm coding. I'm like, king of the world. And then they say, Okay, I'm done. Come on be and then it's like, boom, you know, and then they hit the key. And then they tend to break stuff. So you need to study keyboard sometimes. But But what is it with the field of mechanical keyboards that's so important for people because Franklin expressed it very nicely, and why he's so happy with his mechanical keyboard. But what is it for you, Josh, because you mentioned that the split layout is the most important aspect. But But what about the field, Josh Holtz: I think the thing I like is, I do have headphones in most the time while I'm using it. And if I have like a normal keyboard, I can't really, I get if I don't have headphones in with a normal keyboard, I can kind of hear what I, I can I can hear myself work. But with a mechanical keyboard, I can also feel myself work. So if I have headphones in, I can, I won't be able to hear while unless I'm using a loud mechanical one. But like I can, I can feel feel the press instead of hearing the press. So I think it works well with headphones. But it also works well with headphones, if you are in an office and other people are near you. Because they also don't want to hear what what like all the noise that you are creating Jeroen Leenarts: all the other rattling that you're doing while you're not in the coffee car. So Josh Holtz: like if I actually worked from an office, I probably would not have a mechanical one or have my silent reds. Because I think it is can be a little bit rude. But I work from home. So I don't really have to worry about that too much. But I think I think just having a feel of what what you're doing. It's kind of nice. It's kind of like having the apple trackpad with the haptics on it, but in keyboard form. So that's I think that's kind of kind of somewhat related to each other maybe or making that up I have no idea Jeroen Leenarts: what about you told me Tommy Prezioso Jr: I actually agree with Josh and that sense of just having more of a tactile feedback on the keyboard and pressing and just getting that feel and also audible because I most of the time when I'm programming or typing I might have headphones in I might have you know one ear cup open just so I can hear the surroundings around me and just having that both you know tactile and audible noise knowing you know that my clicks are going through and things like that. Yeah, no, it's definitely it's definitely a different feel. If you've never used a mechanical keyboard before and then you try it it's a whole new world really when when you make that jump over Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, I can agree to that because for me it really is that I don't know if I type on these. These these Apple keyboards because what do we do with Apple keyboards? Josh we don't even Ma'am we leave them in the box in the box. So but what I really noticed is that if I type on the laptop keyboard or like an apple style keyboard is that I don't know what it is but I really don't know that the tips of my fingers they hurt after a day's worth of typing and what with a mechanical keyboard it's really like I don't know I'm I do bottom out two keys but not fully innocent. I already stopped my press before I bought them out. And with these Apple keyboards, I just keep going until I hit a wall, so to speak. And that really at that I know, it really wears on my fingertips, and they're not bleeding at the end of the day, but I do feel it at the end of the day Josh Holtz: topic. I actually really liked the iPad, the iPad Pro, as your keyboard keyboard. Yeah, that one actually has like a really pretty good feel to it. Even though it's not well, it's not a mechanical keyboard, and it does feel different than other other Apple ones. I think it's, it's, it's a pretty good one to go back to. I don't know, I don't know what it is about. If it does have like a little mechanical feel to it. It has it has some sort of tactile on this. It's not, it's it's not a bad keyboard. I like them on a lot. Jeroen Leenarts: So for people who want to look into mechanical keyboards, first of all, should they? Yes, absolutely. And second, second of all, what's what's a good what's a good avenue into this whole ecosystem of stuff, because what I notice is that immediately wants to start looking for mechanical keyboards. It's like I was fully overwhelmed with like, I don't know, you have like red switches and Brown switches and blue switches and Green Switches and silence and you have speed and you have all kinds of different labels attached to just the switches alone and then you get to the layouts. Now you can split them and then you can also Yeah, you can program them and then there's different firmwares involved and Q MK and I don't know what else but so what's it what's it like a gradual inroads into a first mechanical keyboard? What what what would you guys think? That would be like a good first introduction, Josh Holtz: find a friend that has one that you can borrow. Franklin Byaruhanga: And that's also on YouTube. They're the the videos that have the sounds for the different cups, so you can listen to Cherry MX Brown and Chen, red, and pink and then find out which sound which sound you like, which sound can you stand. So that's also one one thing I also did in the beginning. Jeroen Leenarts: There's this there's this Asian girl doing videos switching click I think it's called. It's like she's super excited every time she reviews the keyboard Buzios has some really good like explainer videos on what it is about switches and what it is about layouts and and but she also has like this monster video that she has like, all of her keyboards back to back sound testing them. So it's like, you hear like, one key word, click, click, click, click, then the next key word, click, click, click click click and then like, I don't know, it's like 30 keyboards, and then you're watching it and like halfway through you think why am I watching this? I'm crazy. I need to do something else right now. So um, but yeah, just I think it's solid advice by Joshua religious ask around in your in your surroundings, just maybe a colleague or some friends and hey, do you have anything to say on keyboards? And if they if they look at you puzzled anything like what are you worried about? And don't bother. But if they're into mechanical keyboards, then well, I think you have a new conversation starter with this person then. Because then they will they will they will light up they will really start talking about what they're using as a preferred key Josh Holtz: because they're they're not really the the the cheapest thing to experiment with Tommy Prezioso Jr: no yeah. Josh Holtz: So if you just like go buy one just because it kind of looks cool. It might not actually be what you want or kind of might not last you as long because it might annoy you because the Browns switches are too loud for everybody who sits near you Tommy Prezioso Jr: or you get a blue box Josh Holtz: I don't know what a charity blue is Jeroen Leenarts: that's the clicky Yeah, Josh Holtz: let's see I didn't have that and I've been like Blue Blue sounds cool Tommy Prezioso Jr: yeah no Josh Holtz: hard regrets Oh, we lost Franco. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah. Oh, hopefully I have a backup of his recording because he I was I was having issues. But do you hear this Josh? This is my keyboard and I pressed the button. And now let it go. Yeah. So it has like two clicks that blue? No, this is this is the box whites. Right. Which is mining out here. Josh Holtz: Here's my silent red. Ready? Jeroen Leenarts: You just from yesterday? Josh Holtz: Yeah, that's the that's the silent ride, which I don't have to make a thumb. So but Jeroen Leenarts: I'm just Tommy Prezioso Jr: going into my classic brown. Jeroen Leenarts: THAT'S ALL Yeah, that's that's really the PVC cap that you're hearing. Yeah. I actually I actually tried speed copper switches on my, on my Atrus keyboard and that was horrible. That was like, I don't know what it was, but I if I just looked at it there was registering key presses already. But they had this is clicky Yeah, yeah. This is this is a box brown switch. He just hit plastic. Okay. Yeah. And the real difference is, is this the sharp tick that you hear? Josh Holtz: I like that one. Like, not? Yeah, I've, I've noticed that. If I'm getting a little bit sleepy. My, the the high actuation point on my Silver's will sometimes just have like, just like G's going across the screen because I'm like, just like slightly hitting it. Like, okay, I should probably go to bed now. Because like, I'm gonna, like, hands are going a little bit. A little bit sleepy? Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, just so you're just putting some weights on the keyboards and then it doesn't work as you'd expect. Because, yeah, but we're just in the I don't know, if this would be ATP, then this would already be the after show, I guess. So I need to come up with a tune for that as well. So first of all, thank you guys for the for the time and the conversation on the mechanical keyboards. I'm just going to put this on my podcast feeds, and we'll just see how it lands what people think about it. Hey, we're all iOS developers, right? So it's a perfect fit for my audience. And it's, it's just like at something I just wanted to do. And this is actually going to be the 100 and first episodes on my podcast. So it's sort of like the celebratory weirdness that people think they should do at milestones. So I also fell into that trap, I think. So, thanks again for your time. And by now, we lost Franklin, but he had some great insights for this crazy keyboard. And that will talk to you guys later. See you guys around. Have a good one. Bye