Frank Foster, iOS Dev Happy hour, self taught iOS Developer

Jeroen Leenarts: Hi, and welcome to another special edition of my podcast. I'm sitting here with Frank Foster. You might know him from iOS deaf happy hour because he pretty much took over from Ellen wiry and yeah, he's been doing iOS deaf happy hour with a few other people. I know thing is one of those, but I know there's some more people involved. So before we forget those hi friend how you doing? Hello its name those people? Frank Foster: Yes, the so the the admin group so far now for iOS dev Happy Hour is myself Ting, Alex silver, Chris, whoo. And Mikayla Karen, we actually just brought Chris and Mikayla on because we have a lot of things, hopefully planned in the future, we want to start doing a little bit more and the work is is hard. I honestly, for those of you who've come to iOS dev happy hour in the past, it's it's an event that we put on once a month for developers to kind of network kind of kick back. It's not as it's not as focused on development, as much as it is about just talking with other developers. And I have no idea how Allen did most of it by himself. I've been helping him with the Slack channel and with some other things in the past, but now that he's moved on to bigger, better things, it's been our opportunity to kind of step forward, and he's given us that chance to, to kind of take things over. So it's been it's been a lot of fun. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, Alan went to the spaceship, right? Yes, it is. Frank Foster: Yes. It's as funny as it is. Adrian eaves as well, I think I said his last name correctly. He was also an admin but had to back out because he also wanted a spaceship. So it's it's destiny for everybody who's an admin to eventually get to the spaceship, I think. Jeroen Leenarts: So it has a betting pool running Frank Foster: on your name. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Jeroen Leenarts: So um, but just to just to dive into if happy hour straight up, because then we have dealt with a topic, but we talked about it already. Preset, it's not an Meetup group. It is more like a networking group. I think it is because it's online. It started due to the whole pandemic thing people want to interact, which was impossible, because as software developers do, they tend to go to these in person meetups in the local area a lot. And that was not possible. And then I was deaf happy hour came in. But what do you think the role of iOS deaf Happy Hour has nowadays? Because we're now like, almost like two years into this pandemic? Or? Yeah, Frank Foster: well, I think, you know, they're still I think they're still concerned. You know, we we've seen now what two WWDC s that have been online, we've seen stuff like iOS comp, and I think it was the Swift UI jam, that also there's been a number of other events that that have obviously moved to that online format. And I think that, that I was to have happy hours, just another one that fills that gap of, you know, you can still attend these conferences, and you can still get the information that's necessary. We can all watch the WWDC videos, which is, again, to me, like, you know, the fact that I don't have to burden a $1,500 ticket that I may or may not get, and the flight and all that sort of stuff. It's kind of nice, but I think where iOS dev Happy Hour kind of fits is kind of like what you said, it's a networking kind of event, it's an opportunity for people to still come together to connect with developers. I mean, part I mentioned before that we we brought Chris and Mikayla in partially because they've been part of the community since the beginning. You know, there's people who've gotten jobs through iOS dev happy hour, we still communicate and work with, you know, we have some sponsors and stuff from larger companies so that they can come in and kind of use this as a recruiting opportunity. So I think that's, that's a big part of it is that we're, the way I see it is that like, I'd love for iOS dev happy hour to be sort of the backbone of community, within the iOS, within the iOS world, and it very much centered on that Twitter, that Twitter group, that Twitter sphere of people, that's kind of where it started. But I definitely see it as that and I think that you know, as work is shifting, and as remote opportunities become more and more of a thing. These opportunities for in person meetups are still a ways away, I think. And I think that's where I was to have happy hours is kind of still meeting that need for people in the remote space. Jeroen Leenarts: And if you look at iOS def happy hour, it's a lot different compared to a year ago because now you have instead of one admin, you have an hour for but But how big is five, right? How big is at the moment? Frank Foster: I mean, we we still Garner quite a number of people, I think, you know, on average, we're between one to 200 people showing up every month, which is still pretty, pretty great. You know, there's there's obviously you know, abs ebbs and flows, they're still depending on who we have as as a as a guest speaker sometimes changes that or, you know, especially during the Christmas season it's it's an The holidays, it's getting a little more difficult, just because of the nature of the time, right? People want to spend time with their families and stuff. But, you know, the the opportunities that we see, I think to kind of, you know, do what we can to expand or get the word out, I think there's still a lot of people that don't know that it exists, or that it's an opera option. You know, most of our marketing has been on Twitter, so and our marketing budget is zero. So it's not like we're actively going out and promoting it, it's all sort of word of mouth. But, you know, it's one thing that I'd love to see, I'd love to see the community, you know, sort of broadcast it more and try and cast a wider net to the other communities that may or may not know that we exist, you know, Jeroen Leenarts: and and if if someone decides to participate in IRS def happy hour, what what can they expect? Frank Foster: Yeah, it basically is about a two hour event. So once a month we all meet, we kind of break it out, down into, I'd say about three different sections. So the first section is, you know, if we do have a guest speaker, you know, which has ranged from I mean, we've had summer, panache, panache, I believe, is her last name. Who was the VP one of the engineering managers for Apple for their accessibility teams. We have also had members from Twitter from Capital One, and other high profile teams and engineering groups come in and deliver talks about what it's like to work on those engineering teams or, you know, summer had a great talk about accessibility, we also had Betsy Landowski, who was from Apple as well coming to talk about the Apple talks that just happened and sort of garner some more interest there and kind of spread the word as well. So you know, we definitely have a great working relationship with a lot of the larger companies and organizations within the Swift community. So that's one thing that we usually like, kind of start things off with is like, hey, let's kind of, you know, pop this open for questions. And then we usually go into, you know, these breakout rooms is kind of how we break it down, you know, zoom, has this wonderful feature where you can kind of divide people up into little subgroups and allow for conversations. So we've been kind of testing the waters lately, normally, we would do like a random group. So you kind of just get thrown in randomly with a group of people. But how we've been breaking it up recently is that the first section, we've been kind of doing guided once, so we might have a room that people can choose a topic to go into. And so we'll have Hey, there's a room of, you know, UI kit, or Swift UI, or indie developers, getting started with iOS, you know, we have a lot of junior developers that want to come in and get some answers. So and it's a great way to kind of crowdsource to the community in that way. So those people that are, you know, too, too shy to kind of ask the questions, but being in a group setting, they might be comfortable to answer that or see familiar faces, you know, it's sort of an excellent way for people to communicate that way. And then towards the end of the event, we do we do do another random event, just sort of like a mixer, you know, hey, you've had your fun talking about that topic. Now, let's just kind of get to know each other, you know, and that's a great way to kind of expand your network and, you know, find out other fun, cool things that people are doing. We also like to showcase you know, another thing in between our in between our breakout rooms is that we also try to showcase, you know, a new developer, someone who just got their, their first go into the career, or someone who, you know, just started at a new company, or who just launched something new, just so that we can like keep that hype and that energy and that excitement around becoming a developer or being a developer and share advice to the community from how they got there. So Jeroen Leenarts: is is def FPR. Is it like a legal entity? Or is it like strictly grassroots? The way it's set up? How does it work in practice? Because five people, yes, sponsors you have, like costs that are ongoing. How does this all come together? Frank Foster: Yeah, I think for the most part right now, it still is very grassroots. So there's a lot of, you know, we have a very small, very, not very advertised method of, you know, donation to our group, so that we can utilize that our sponsors, we do ask, you know, hey, we have different sponsorship tiers, if someone would like to come in and say, you know, do a presentation or have some marketing done by our group or, you know, whatever else the case may be. So, those are all avenues that we're still kind of exploring and still kind of going, you know, with with Alan and the work that he did to get it going, he was he was a one man operation, right. So, and he got help from us to kind of keep keep the chaos, you know, but we're still in that process of trying to decide okay, how Do we want to structure this and sort of kind of, as you mentioned, you know, when the pandemic slows down, or when in, in person events become more popular, what is, you know, iOS dev happier look like? And how do we keep that energy going? So it's all something that we're still in conversation about and trying to figure out, you know, what is the best method for all this going forward? So there's, there's new avenues and ways that we're that we're trying and I think each event is, is unique in the sense that we're trying those new things in those in production, so to speak. So it gives us an opportunity to get feedback from the community and hear from people as far as what they want the event to look like to because I feel that's also a big part of it is that it's not just us dictating to the community, what we think they want. It's, you know, listening to the community and hearing like, you know, what would they like to see it be? So I think that's a huge, huge component of it, too. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah. Yeah. And so, and if people want to know more about our stuff, happy hour, where should they look? Of course, of course, on Twitter, it's there. But yeah, other things. Frank Foster: Yeah, the hashtag iOS dev happy hour, as well as the the Twitter handle, we have a Twitter as well. You can also go to the iOS Dev, Happy Hour comm or we have a lot of information there as well, including links to the most recent event, you can register their registration for the event, it's completely free. That's another thing that we that we are pretty committed to is making sure that it's open and available to everybody who you know, as long as you have a computer and a microphone, you can come join us. You know, we you can turn on your camera if you want. Some people do some people don't. Jeroen Leenarts: But it's it's a choice that you can make. It's a choice. Frank Foster: Yeah, we're not sticklers about it. But yeah, you can also find me or Alex, Chris Mikayla or ting on Twitter as well. And I don't know if I can rattle off all of our all of our handles, but you can at least find me at Frankie Foster, Frank, E, the letter Foster on Twitter, and then kind of go from there. So cool. Jeroen Leenarts: Um, so that was a lot about iOS deaf, happy hour. So net. Now let's talk more about you. That's also a big part of the of the episode that we're recording today. So yeah, you're involved with Iris deaf, happy hour, we talked about that. But what are some other things that you're doing? Frank Foster: Oh, boy. Well, I sometimes joke to my wife that, you know, all I want for Christmas is more time, right? Like, there's always so many things that we have going on. But to give you a kind of paint a picture, I guess, sort of in summary, so I'm a father, I've got three children, I've got a five year old and twins that are three. So they keep us very busy in our in our off hours. I am an associate iOS developer at at Rocket Mortgage. So I actually work in the same organization that Tim Becker does, as well. So we we crossed paths from time to time. Let's see I'm working on two different apps right now in my spare time. As well as just kind of maintaining, we've got a pretty large property up here. 10 acres up here in North Idaho. So maintaining that, building some apps, I'm also trying to, I was part of a group called Inspire Idaho. In fact, it was kind of one of the things that got me going into coding. And it was an event. It was a program put on by University of Idaho, and partnership a little bit with Apple's education team to kind of get people started and learning app development. And I was one of the mentors for that group, and was kind of my impetus to say, hey, you know, the best way to start learning this is actually to just teach it, you know, and unfortunately, that group is they're starting to wind it down, they've basically, the funding is kind of run dry, and the university is not finding any resources to continue it. But I'll still be continuing it on my own with our group here in North Idaho. Because I do see value with it. You know, there's there's so many people that, that I think Idaho was, had something like in 2018, they had something like 7000 STEM related jobs that went unfilled. And a lot of that is in the education sphere. So that was that's another thing that I partner with. And we'll definitely be continuing going in the future. But that's that's kind of an overview, I guess, of all the all the little side projects that I'm working on and stuff that's happening. Jeroen Leenarts: So you mentioned side projects. And because of course, your your your day to day job. We can't really dive into that because there's NDAs in fourth but the default app development if I'm correct, yes. And with the side projects that you're currently doing and upkeep of your property and the family indicates you mentioned time being an issue For you, how does that manifests? In your case? Frank Foster: Oh, well, you know, so to kind of, you know, both me and my wife work. So my wife is actually she's an aquatics manager for the city here. So she helps coordinate and do the swim lessons. So, a lot of my time is when she's, when I'm off work, usually, you know, a couple times a week, she's on work. So a lot of that is me, you know, spending time with the kids taking care of the house, the property, you know, kind of doing that, thankfully, our kids are past that age, we got to we got them, you know, pretty much potty trained. So, there's, there's a lot less work to do now. Yeah, but you know, they're, they're still young, they're learning, there's so much more involved with being a parent. But I, you know, a lot of it is sacrifice of sleep, and of other things, you know, for, for me to spend time working on the side projects that I work on, you know, it's usually late into the evening, it's after the kids are in bed. And it's, it's kind of, you know, it's, it's kind of my hobby, right? Like, a lot of the times you you need to find that hobby that you enjoy. And what's great is that I really do love iOS development as a day job, but I also love to do it in the evening when I get opportunities to. That's not to say that every night I'm grinding away at an app or doing something, there's a lot of TV shows that are really fun to watch. And there's a lot of house projects that really need to be done. So that's that's kind of it. But you know, I think, as it stands, for the most part, it's sacrifice of sleep. So Jeroen Leenarts: that that works to some degree, but at some point, you have to sleep, of course. So the side projects, do you have some active app side projects going on at the moment, or? Frank Foster: Yes, so I'm actually working on two different apps, one of which I've been working on sort of as the as the app project, since the beginning, that I've, I've called it a couple different names, the name that it currently stands on is sage RPG. And so friends of mine and myself, we've all started to get into tabletop role playing games, like Dungeons and Dragons, and things like that. And there's a Star Wars one that's out there, that's, you know, not very popular, but it's gaining popularity. And the problem with a lot of tabletop role playing games, other than Dungeons and Dragons, is that there's not a lot of resources out there available to, to kind of like build those worlds or maintain your, your campaigns and keep track of your notes and your characters and all that stuff. So I've started working on sort of a database app to kind of maintain that that's more open source for stuff beyond Dungeons and Dragons. So that you can kind of modify it to whatever, whatever tabletop game you're playing, and use it as a as a resource for that. That one's been rewritten probably three times, I'm on my third rewrite, you know, started in Swift and UI kit, and now it's moved to Swift UI 1.0. And now I'm on Swift UI. 3.0 is sort of the current iteration of it. And especially after, you know, being, you know, moving into the development space, my first iOS developer job was, you know, September of last year. And so I've learned quite a lot in that time as far as architectures and, you know, layouts and sort of best practices. And so getting to reapply that to the side project and go, Oh, this is a way easier way to do this. Or, I can do this much faster now that I know X, Y, or Z. And so that's that's what sage has kind of been, I don't know if it'll ever release. I think it's always been just that Limbo project. But that's been kind of my I guess, you could say the the, the Frank flagship project that I've been working on. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah. And is it like, you mentioned something interesting there, because you've been doing some sort of iOS development, like, say chargebee for quite a long time. So how many years? Have you been working on that code base in all iterations? Frank Foster: Probably at least since 2019. So almost two years, three years. It'll be three years, probably coming up in July of next year. Jeroen Leenarts: And how long have you been a professional software developer? Frank Foster: Since September of 2020. Jeroen Leenarts: So what's your story there? Because you must have done something before that, right. Frank Foster: Yeah, so yeah, the story is kind of No, I've never worked before. So I actually started working as it No, I'm just kidding. I just started working as a developer. I've never had a job. I Jeroen Leenarts: woke up Sunday and I decided, like, Frank Foster: you know what? No, I'm so historically, I actually worked in it. So I was I was actually Believe it or not, I actually got my start. I like to say my first, you know, adult, big job was working at Apple, I was a, I was a specialist, which was one of their salespeople on the floor. And then after a few months, I moved up into the family room, which is what they called it at the time. Otherwise known as the Genius Bar, and sort of the whole Genius Bar experience. And I became a genius at Apple, which was really fun to write on my tax returns, and my taxes is like, professional genius, you know. But, yeah, I was a genius at Apple until about 2016. And around that time, you know, I had this, I was starting to have the thought of, like, I'd like to do software development. Because I very much, you know, after doing it for so many years, you get to know, the computer, the software side of things, right, you, I understand how a Mac works pretty intricately. And I understand the hardware pretty intricately, and you kind of you know, that was my first entrance into like, wanting to work with computers was fixing them, and repairing the software and kind of all that. And at a certain point, I was like, you know, what it's, it's, you know, the best analogy I came up with was, you know, it's fun being a mechanic, but wouldn't it be fun to build the car, right? And, and I don't think I'll ever get to the point where I'll actually build like a processor and RAM and all that sort of stuff. That's, that's a lot more technical, but the software side of things I started looking into, and I was like, Well, what does it take to be a developer, and Apple, unfortunately, was very there at the time. And I don't know how things have changed in the retail sphere there. But at the time, it was like, if you write an app, we own it. So I couldn't work at Apple anymore. And I was also kind of getting tired of the retail experience. So I moved into a local credit union and was working as an IT guy there for Windows devices in a Windows environment. So I still got to learn, you know, a whole other side of computing the Windows side, and sort of the deployments there and, and sort of the infrastructure networks and stuff like that. And then was later hired. And you know, I moved to another job that paid better and was a little more laid back and got to work with Max again, at a company called rover.com. And rover in April of 2020. Now, rover.com was a, an app company as well, they made an app and still make an app for hiring dog walkers very similar to how Uber, you'd hire you know, someone to come drive you around, was the same sort of business model. But for dog walking, and dog walking in a pandemic didn't really work well together. So they decided, hey, let's not do that anymore, or let's cut it back. They cut the workforce down, and I was one of the people who was downsized. So rewinding a little bit back to the end of Apple. That's when I kind of started having this sort of code discovery. And then in 2018, this opportunity at Inspire Idaho jumped up, I said, we were going to be doing this coding thing we need people to help teach, even if you don't know a lick of code, come here, we'll give you like a week starting point. And then you go on and teach everybody else. And I jumped on it. I said, You know what, I don't know a thing about this, but it's apple, it's it's iOS development. Let's do it, right, because I had already started discovering that. So I jumped on that opportunity. And it was actually kind of a funny experience, because the material that they use was Apple's own books, and training courses. And they said, Okay, here's the material that you're going to be teaching people. Now go introduce yourself to everybody and tell them about the training material. And they gave us like, no heads up on, on how we were going to start this process. So they're just like, and now you're leading goodbye. So, but it was great, because it's kind of being thrown into the fire, right? Like, you get that opportunity to really get to know the material because you have to and inspire was it was a great start. I was doing that alongside working and sort of teaching myself and learning and kind of starting on small little projects and, and just sort of flexing the muscles there. And, you know, it was it was a it was and continues to be a really great opportunity for people to kind of connect up here in Idaho, especially when you don't have the support that larger cities would have with with more connected groups. So you know, kind of doing that alongside it and then getting laid off in April kind of led me to go okay, you know, there's there's this boost here in the US for unemployment, you know, thankfully they gave us a really good severance package really good unemployment. And I said you know what, like, I've been doing this for almost two years sort of part time. It's time for me to like make that jump right like this is the time because there's gonna be no other time. Yeah, you know, I, if I don't succeed at this Then I have to go back to that I have to go back to it. And I don't think I can do that again, you know, it was just kind of one of those moments. So I spent pretty much every day from April to September, applying for jobs, tweaking my resume, sort of the start of my Twitter experience. And I had Twitter ages ago, but kind of really started using it, again, as a networking tool sort of started up there again, as sort of a way to be like, hey, you know, for me to get in somewhere, I got to know somebody, or I've got a, I've got to search it out, you know. So that was kind of the start of it was me sort of jumping in, it's where I met Alan, it's where I met. Adrian, it's where I met a lot at Tang, it's where I met kind of the whole group there. And sort of took off from there. So it was September, finally a company called Gleason technology hired me on as their sole iOS developer. So I ended up working on their apps, and then found an opportunity at rocket, what was it August of this year? So yeah, it was kind of a it's been kind of a wild ride. Like, I almost feel like because we're still in this pandemic mode, in some places, you know, like, it still has just been like, one whole year, you know, like one whole experience all at once. But Jeroen Leenarts: yeah, it can get a bit messy in your head, just keep track of everything going on, and what you're allowed to do, and what's actually happened in all those. But it does sound that the, that the pandemic and the effects that it had on your work life, and then also probably a bit of the government that say, throughout some support for people as well, that that gave you enough financial slack to be able to try and make this leap. But well, what was it like? Because I can imagine that at some point, you and your partner, they come to the conclusion together in conversation, okay, now something needs to change, what can I do we have some slack. Should we do it? What was what was it like for her to, to be able to support you in this to tell you like, hey, go ahead, or are you sure? What was it like? Frank Foster: Yeah. Oh, man. I mean, it was a combination of many things. It was partially, you know, there's, there's a small part of you, that's like, super excited, right? Because, you know, to be completely transparent, like I was kind of, I was kind of done with the aspect of it, that was kind of, you know, it is very rigid, right? Like, there's one way to reset a password, there's one way to do this. And, you know, in the position that I was in, there wasn't a lot of room for creativity. And I grew up with a very creative background, my, you know, my mom, I went to music. I went to college for a music degree that I never ended up finishing, maybe someday. And my mom was an artist, and you know, there's a lot of creativity, that's part of my life. So having an opportunity to pursue it is very exciting, right? It's very much like, okay, cool, this thing that I've really loved doing as sort of a hobby, and trying to turn it into a career is is really exciting. On the flip side, you know, kind of like what you said, there's a deadline, right? Like the, the government's money runs out, and the severance money runs out. And all that has, has a point and a period in which if things don't change, this is the stopping point. Right? Yeah. You know, especially I'm a diabetic, and I'm a diabetic living in the United States. So our, our health care system, very much wants to charge me money if I don't have health insurance, and health insurance is very much tied to employment. Yeah. So, you know, I September was literally the cut off, I'm not even joking there. So it was, it was very much a gamble, it was very much, you know, an opportunity where, you know, my wife saw the work that I had been putting in and saw the passion that I have, and thankfully, you know, with with her job also being in a similar situation, they had to put her on hold and we had some some, you know, support coming in there. As well as you know, where we're currently living the home that we're in right now is actually my father's home. Because another story is that we we decided to move back in, due to my mother having some serious health issues and needing some help around the house. And she ended up passing away in 2017. But we we, we just stuck around because it was financially better for us. And you know, it's good support for my father and things like that. So Jeroen Leenarts: and also the property watch it sold a property on a 10 acre. Yeah, that's probably not a small house. Frank Foster: Yeah, it's, well, it's you know, that the house itself was built in the 1960s and is very much a farmhouse Yeah, so there's there's a lot of you know, there's a lot of history and a lot of Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah. And I think like in those years, the 50s, the 60s, families were, on average, quite a lot bigger than they are nowadays. Yeah, I think so there's plenty of rooms there most likely. Frank Foster: Absolutely. Yeah. So So I mean, you know, we're, we're very blessed. And I definitely recognize the privilege that I have to have this position, you know, if it wasn't for this, and kind of the timing really, like, it's, it's terrible to say that a global pandemic is what gave me the opportunity to make this shift. But it really was. Jeroen Leenarts: And it is it is a big asset for a lot of people, I think, yeah, just having to have your, basically your entire work life uprooted in such a significant way. And of course, yes, as software developers, I always say, as software developers, in the pandemic, work at least, has been pretty much easy mode, because you just pick up the laptop and you find a quiet spot, and you're able to work. But that's not the case for all professions. I know. But yeah, you've like, made this jump into software development, with support of your of your family. It turns out, so your father and and your wife. But you said September was a hard deadline. And then also September was when you landed your first developer job, you said, that must have been stressful there? Frank Foster: Well, it was, um, I can say, you know, so the severance that I had for my last job the had health coverage until the end of September, so and my start date, I think was September 14. Yeah. And that's when the coverage started for my new job. So especially as a as like I said, as a diabetic, it was kind of like cutting, cutting the wire, right. We had we had, you know, there, there were some, you know, opportunities that if it really came down to it, you know, I had some, some, some fallbacks, but most of them were, you know, pretty much like digging deep into savings or digging, digging deep into debt, to kind of keep us afloat until something happened, because I was, you know, sort of August, September, I was still I was starting to go, Okay, I'll start applying for IT jobs a while I'm applying for this so that if something were to happen, I can at least do that. And I wasn't really paying attention to the IT market at the time, compared to the software development market, where most of my attention was, and even then the IT market was having similar problems. You know, people were, it was very difficult to find an opportunity. But I think it was just, I really can only say that it was dumb luck, you know, that it was just, it was just, you know, I think it was an opportunity for, for us to try something bold with the resources that we had. And to just go for it, you know? Jeroen Leenarts: So but now you're a software developer, a professional one, even to give it like a full title. How did you celebrate this event on September 14? Oh, my Frank Foster: goodness. Well, I mean, funny enough, the big thing, I made the announcement on Twitter. And funny enough, the celebration of that was kind of neat, because it went extremely viral. I think I hit you know, 1.7 million impressions or something and 40,000 likes or something. So it was that alone was like really, there's a confidence boost there that happens where you're like, Okay, I'm, I'm on the right path. As funny as it like, I'm very much like, I don't think social media should rule your opinion of yourself. But there still is a little bit there, right? Like, having a community kind of celebrate you in a ways is really, really cool. And getting to speak at one of the first I was to have happy hours was also really cool. Like that moment of like, recognition by the community. Aside from that with a family it was you know, I am a bit of a whiskey guy. So I spent a little bit on a nice bottle of whiskey and said, You know what, here's the celebratory whiskey when I when I landed the job. And then of course, you know, we had a nice dinner, we had some treats, you know, especially during a pandemic, you can't exactly say, Hey, let's go out for dinner. Jeroen Leenarts: Let's get to the heart. Frank Foster: That's fun stuff. So we brought it home. Yeah, that's that's how we did it. Yeah, Jeroen Leenarts: that's what we've been doing here in my home, as well a lot. Because having a three year old and a six year old does make. Yeah, that is the oldest one. She does get everything that's going on. The youngest one. He's just happy if he has his toy and a nice meal. And so yeah, just to switch gears a little bit. You have another side project, right as at least recommended the second app. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Frank Foster: Yeah, so this one. This one I'm building with some tools that I can't talk about yet. So I've kind of hinted at it on my Twitter a little bit that I've got a, I've got an app, I can speak about the app itself, though, and I'm hoping to have the test flight was supposed to go out today. And I was gonna be super secret and kind of like, ooh, here it is. But it's still in review. So I'm waiting for it. But it's I said, you know, what, like, Sage is gonna take forever? Can I make a real quick, small app, using these tools that I've had the opportunity to use? Can I make a quick small app and get it out? Like, can I actually release something because, you know, this is something that a lot of you know, other junior developers have, too, which is, you know, Oh, before I even get a job, before I even go into that sphere, I should have something on the App Store, or I should have something on GitHub. And I can say, with pretty good confidence that the stuff that I have on GitHub is not great. It's not emblematic of the work that I know how to do. And, and, you know, I thought, you know, what, it's not going to do too much for me to go to another, you know, to put on the resume, so to speak. But it's something that I want to accomplish, right? Like, I want to get an app out there, I want to have something there. And I want to go through the whole process. And one problem that I've always had, and it's kind of it's such a vain problem. But whenever you have a friend or a family member, say something like, Hey, I'm going to order this food, or I'm going to go out here and get this food, what do you want from this restaurant, right. And, you know, you usually get the someone usually says, oh, like, text it to me, or message it to me or do something. And I just got really tired of typing the same stuff. Because I'm a creature of habit. Like if if someone is going to, you know, say subway, or McDonald's, or you know, any of these fast food places, I know what I want, I know exactly what it is. But I don't want to have to type it all the time, or tell them to go scroll up through the chair, the conversation. So I said, You know what, I'm going to build an app that keeps track of that for you. So you can put in all of your favorite, you know, orders from restaurants, be the local be the big chains, be they whatever, and be able to share it. So that you can just say, Hey, this is what I want, boom, share, send it off. So that's, it's such a vain little thing. And it's essentially just a copy paste sheet, almost. But that's kind of what I've been working on. I'm calling it munchie. So that's just as like you get you want some munchies to eat. Not so much in the in the the 420 kind of crowd, but it's just sort of a cute little name. munchie kind of sounds cute. So I thought that's a it's a fun, cute name. Jeroen Leenarts: So So what kind of app icon are you're looking at for this app? Frank Foster: So I've actually, I kind of posted on Twitter, I have zero budget, right? Like, this is just a side project. This isn't anything amazing. And thankfully, you know, someone from the community Faber has actually jumped forward and said that he he wants to try his design skills and is going to jump out and make the app icon for me. So I've actually got an icon made. He did an amazing job. And it's it's kind of this sort of list view that kind of looks like a list, but each line item on the list is a different utensil or a star. So it's really cool. Again, I can't wait to share it. Once it does. Once Apple decides that the test flight is over, but or they're they're done reviewing it, there's still a lot more work to do. There's a few little things like I forgot to add an edit options. So that's why we bring it to test flight. Right is to give people a taste of it and then Jeroen Leenarts: share it. That's that's what's called MTP. Right, mostly. Exactly. Frank Foster: Exactly, exactly. And I've got some other ideas down the road for it, but I don't think it's going to be you know, a, I don't think it's anything that the entrepreneurial side of the internet is going to be, you know, like, Ooh, how are you going to monetize the? And it's like, yeah, I might throw a tip jar in there. But other than that, like, this is a side project for me just to kind of have out there, you know, and I'm actually excited about it, because it's something that I know I can release. It's something that I know, I can say, hey, you know, this will be out at the end of the year or early next year as a full released app that you know, that I've made on the App Store. And so that was kind of the intention of it right is to not let not let feature creep, get too far and not let too much of my own ego get involved and just say this is what I want it to do. This is what I'm going to release and here's the app, you know. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay. Well, just to give like a little recap. So you tried to do a music related degree, and then you went to it without any prior formal education on it, it's just because we had interest in the technology and you were able to learn the job there and then grow from there. At some point you got, well, let's just say it, it wore on you and you wanted to switch out of it into something that would give you the opportunity to employ that creative muscle a bit more. So then software development seemed like a good thing. You worked hard on it, you took a huge leap. And then in 2020, in on 14th of September, you landed your first software developer job, while you were already dabbling with several iOS bits of code before that for like two years. So you mentioned Yeah. And then along that line, you also got involved with Iris deaf happy hour, I think Iris deaf happy hour in your case was very instrumental in keeping you motivated on your job search to turn into an iOS app developer. Frank Foster: 100%. Yeah. Jeroen Leenarts: And now you're releasing your first well, munchy app? Really? You're working on it? It's just a little bit of a of a hobby project, it seems. But what's in store next for you? Because that's a lot of change in? And I think, a short while actually. Frank Foster: Yeah, it's, um, the acceleration has been incredible. That's, that's the thing that I think is, is insane to me. You know, I think a lot of a lot of what I'm aiming for in the future is, you know, kind of getting myself more stable, as far as you know, the abilities and the tools that I know, and sort of, you know, expanding my, my knowledge horizons, right? You know, there's so often I think a lot of people say, you know, Hey, anybody can code. And while that's true, there's so many other aspects to like, being a developer within a company or an organization, that that is so helpful to know, right? Like, there's, there's agile workflows, there's CI, CD pipelines, there's architectures, there's all those other pieces. And, you know, there's, there's a point, I think every developer kind of gets to where you have that peak, right, where you start off, and it's, it's difficult to just kind of like, even get the basics down, and you get past that point, and a switch flips, and you start to understand and kind of gather that information more and more and faster and faster. And I feel like I'm right at that point right now, where I feel like, I'm ready to jump into anything and learn it. And I'm very excited to just kind of, you know, in in those, those side pieces get to do it. But I also do feel like I've got a little ego going. And I've got a little bit of, you know, some some gas in the tank, so to speak. And, you know, one thing that I that I'm really aiming for and hoping for is contributing, actually trying to find a way to learn to contribute to the Swift language. Whether that's coming up with evolution proposals, or whether that's, you know, they have a, they just started last year, a program for people to kind of start follow along with a mentor and kind of learn how to get things into the language. I think, you know, I'm part of my part of my sort of stopping point with it was that I felt like I had kind of hit the wall where I was like, Okay, I don't really want to learn anymore. Like, there's, I've learned everything about computers, I feel like I've got a very good grasp on networking on servers on on this and that, and there's not to say that I like I learned everything or that I'm, you know, a genius of some sort. I mean, I used to be an Apple Genius, but that I'm some sort of wunderkind of, you know, knowing things, but it just was the point for me to say, I'm done with this side of computing. And so now I'm on the other side, and the world is a, you know, it's, it's like a kid in a candy shop, I don't know what to pick and where to go next. But the one kind of coding thing that I love to accomplish, either next year, or the year after that is contributing to the language. Because I very much, you know, it's something I've never done. It's something that seems really awesome. And to say that you've done it, you know, there's, there's, you know, very few people within the community who've done that. I think that, you know, being able to really understand the language more from a technical standpoint, there's just so many benefits to that. I think there's so much that can be garnered from learning that and, you know, I just want to be a sponge and understand at all Yeah, absolutely crazy as that might sound but Jeroen Leenarts: So, okay, yeah, that sounds like you have some plans still ahead of you. And by the looks of things, so you're really enjoying yourself because people listen to this podcast, they can't see how big smile is on Frank's face all the time. While he's talking about this. There's one thing I just wanted to touch upon, and that's some guy called swift Claus. Oh, yeah. What's the deal with him? What's going on there? Yes. Frank Foster: So Swifty Claus is a guest that we have at the iOS dev happy hour. He he arrived last year, mysteriously out of thin air and has been somewhat instrumental in you know, providing Christmas and holiday cheer for our iOS stuff. Happy Hour. So I know he he is supposed to be here at the next iOS dev Happy Hour, which I'm sure this this will probably go out after but it's this Saturday on the on the 11th. But yeah, Swifty causes is a bringer of holiday cheer is the best way to put it. The I would say that, you know, Adrian ABS is very much close friends, very close friends with Swifty cause, and I'm sure you know, he'll have a lot more to share. Come come the 11th. I know it's cryptic, but it's a good way to Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, I know. I know. He's that that Swifty clause when Alan had to step down from IRS def happy hour, that 50 clause was able to provide, let's just say a significant contribution to the well, good sound off of Elon at that point in time. It was just like a present that he was totally not expecting. At that point. I think he almost fell off his chair. Which was good. Yeah. But yeah, it's thrifty class, probably, if you're missing on the Saturday, because indeed, I'm going to be releasing this episode after the 11th of December. I think it'll be back next year, right? Frank Foster: I hope so. I hope so. I think you know, Swifty, cause at this point has made an appearance and both will be making an appearance at both holiday events. So I would I would have a good chance that if you miss it this year. He may be coming back the year after that. But Adrian will probably have more information since he's so closely connected to Swifty cause. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay. Well, but that's Frank, I think it's it's about time that we start wrapping up because we've been talking close to an hour already. Frank Foster: Yeah, it's, it's felt like it's just been blowing by? Jeroen Leenarts: Well, that's a good thing. Because then probably we got some good content out of you. And, yeah, if people want to get in touch with you, what's the best way for them to do that? Frank Foster: Yeah, the best way is definitely Twitter. Just at Frank E. Foster. And, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm active often on there, but I at least check it a couple times a day. Feel free to DM me with any questions. I like to also say, you know, as best as I can, I like to help people who are definitely starting out as well. So I know, I know that feeling offended there. I want to do what I can, I may not be able to give personal one on one time to everybody. But if you have a quick question or something that I can guide you on, you know, don't hesitate to reach out. So for those who are starting out and just listening, feel free. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay, well, but that's Frank, thanks for your time. And enjoy the rest of your day. And maybe we'll talk again soon. Frank Foster: Sounds good. Sounds good. And you enjoy the rest of your rest of your day and rest of your holiday