Lea Marolt Sonnenschein, coach and creator of Jrny app

Jeroen Leenarts: Hi, and welcome to another special edition of our podcast. I'm sitting here with Leah model Sonnenschein. I hope I pronounced that correctly. Because last name sounds German, but you're not actually German. So what's the deal there? Lea Marolt Sonnenschein: Yeah, I, Hi, my name is Leah. I am originally from Slovenia. So my first name and my first last name I both Slovenian. And then my second last names on in shine is German. And that's because my father's side of the family are Jewish, and they change their surname to a German word during the work. Yeah, yeah, there's Jeroen Leenarts: some, unfortunately, some benefits back in the day to do that actually, with with such background. So actually, yesterday when we were recording this, it's, it was Remembrance Day in the Netherlands. So a lot of contemplation going on about things that happened decades ago. And unfortunately, those things are still happening nowadays in other parts of the world, still in Europe, and yeah, horrible. But you live in the UK, you're from Slovenia, your company owner, you started journey, which is destroyed telling me before we started recording, take it away, what is it about Lea Marolt Sonnenschein: your journey is your personal career coach that lives on Slack, essentially. So it's powered by AI and some human curation. And it's basically this nice way for you to self reflect on your career, and have better conversations that your manager geared specifically towards people who are in their first professional decades, mostly towards engineers who often don't want to talk to someone who is a real human coach. So we've seen a lot of success with that and also use the slack bots already. Jeroen Leenarts: So but it's, it's it's a thing that you as a company started eight months ago, but I recommend eight months ago wasn't the inception of the idea. So when did this whole journey thing start, like percolating in the back of your mind? Lea Marolt Sonnenschein: Yeah, what journey of journey? Yeah, so I'll, I'll tell you. So back, when I was working at a company in New York, I was an iOS engineer, and I really wanted to transition to a product manager. Because I, we just didn't have a product manager. And I thought, you know, why not? Why not have someone to take the mantle. So I did a transition, everyone was supportive. But then I was kind of plopped into that role with just no support, like, go do things. And that ended up having me feeling a lot of anxiety, impostor syndrome, burnout. Because I didn't know what I could ask, like, how I could talk to people about this, and who I should go for, for advice. So those feelings stuck with me for a while. And that was a reason I was kind of switching between, like, maybe I should go back to iOS, maybe I should do back to product. And it went on for so long that I decided to get a career coach about a year and a half ago now. And I spent a lot of time searching for one found this awesome lady from San Francisco, Lindsay. And we spent three months together and it was super, super transformational for me, kind of helped me get clear on what I wanted to do more confident in our abilities, and just know how to make decisions that were right for me with a framework that I developed throughout this program myself, but it cost me $4,000. And that's just not a price that most of us can afford. And I could see how my peers at companies like AT Moulton said startups really, were feeling similarly like not really understanding like their career progression and paths and wanting more from their managers, and not really getting it like wanting to be coached. But the managers weren't really helping. And just not having clarity from their company. So that, you know, there must be a better way that we can help people get the clarity for themselves and take their careers into their own hands instead of relying on other people to do it for them. Especially because senior executives and leaders and companies often get coaching. And they're the ones like who this is reserved for. But that seems really like wrong. If you think about it. Like, if you get coaching at the end of your career, like you're only gonna benefit from it like for the next five years, maybe. But if you get coaching at the beginning of your career, like imagine the potential and the impact that can have for the rest of your career path. Yeah, so essentially, we want to flip that on its head. And then whether a bunch of different iterations of what we're doing, we're doing some cohort based stuff We're doing something focused on mostly like products, something more for engineers, something for high schoolers, at some point even a Sunday for teachers, and then ended up landing on a journey, the idea of like combining almost edtech plus career coaching in a program that would send you these like bite sized activities and exercises to help you engage and self reflect in a bunch of different ways in like, five to 10 minutes a day. So I put together a program with my coach, my ex coach Lindsay. And I had designed a beautiful mobile app for it, because mobile apps are my jam, right? I've been in mobile since 2012. Really, and been like developing designing product managing mobile apps. That's what I know how to do. So I had a lovely prototype, and a demo, and we're sharing this with people, and they were all excited. And then I thought to myself, you know, like, Let's build it. But then something in the back of my mind was like, maybe before you started building this, you should test out the content of what you put together. And so because of that, I decided, let's test that on Slack. Because the content was very, like short. And it was text based, really like the way that we were sharing exercises with people and activities. So sometimes you answer questions, sometimes you like do a quiz. Sometimes you upload things, sometimes we do like some card sorting. So it could be done on Slack, right. And so decided to do that with the first 15 users. And then the engagement on Slack was just so good. People were coming in like day after day after day, that it just shocked me because I know that for mobile apps, that doesn't happen, like notifications don't really work. People don't want to waste like time with real estate on mobile apps, unless it's like super crucial. And I was like, Okay, this should not be a mobile app. Unfortunately. I still want to build a mobile app for our business at some point, maybe five years down the line. But yeah, that's, yeah, that's a journey of journey. Jeroen Leenarts: So that's a, that's a good story that you're telling there. Because it's actually based on something that you've experienced yourself. And then this flipping things on its head with the coaching, that's, I find it interesting that, in a sense, you're right, because when is coaching the most impactful when you have many years ahead of you to actually reap the benefits of it. But looking at journeys, now, eight months as a company, but how far along? Is it? And I don't want to make a joke of how far along the journey it's journey. Lea Marolt Sonnenschein: Upon I wonder, I wonder when I'm gonna get like, really bored. Far not yet. But yeah, so originally, actually, I went entirely low tech. And what that meant was that I was the bot. So I had two accounts on Slack one was me, Laya. One was me, Coach bot. And I would message people from the coach bought account every day at a certain time to get there, like exercise and activity, to test out the content, right, I didn't want to build anything. That was my pm hit hat on. And since then, we've gone through a couple of pilots. And then I ended up recruiting a CTO, I was, you know, not really very hopeful. I was thinking I'll have to build this myself. But ended up just getting a couple of people to apply that were really good, actually. And two candidates came out on top, and then I decided to go with one and we've been working for the past three months together. And yeah, we actually just launched the fully automated like Slack, I bought version this Monday, so may 2. Jeroen Leenarts: So what is it like? Is it a is it a startup in the sense that it's funded by by somebody? Or is it grassroots or what's the what's the what's the launch plan, actually, because building a product takes time. Lea Marolt Sonnenschein: It does. So right now we're bootstrapped. And there's a couple of reasons for that. One is that if you go racing with just an idea, people don't listen. So that's one thing. So I tried that in November didn't work. Okay. People said come back to me when you have something I was like alright, let's, let's see what happens. So we kind of focus mostly on product and users and getting our content to be at a really like high quality. But the idea with this like launch that we did to A private beta essentially, is that it will prove to be a proof point for us whether this is worth pursuing further. So like, are users engaging? Are they coming back? Are they having a good experience all that stuff, and then use that obviously as leverage for when we go and raise our pre seed round, which will start happening in a couple of weeks from now. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, so exciting times. And people listening to this, where can they look online to learn a bit more about this, this journey thing that you're working on? Lea Marolt Sonnenschein: Yeah, so you can go to JRNY dot space. To check it out. It's a pretty bare bones website. But if you submit the form, and you say that you came from App force one, or this podcast, and I'll make sure to take a look and give you priority access to our beta. Jeroen Leenarts: So that concludes journey as like a topic because I just wanted to get it out of the way, because I'd be looking at your online presence. And yeah, this is like at the top of the list. And it's it looks very interesting. But you've also been an iOS developer, and you made switch from iOS developer to product manager, and now due to that switch company owner. But what got you started in software development? Back in the day, because you already mentioned that you've been doing iOS developer since 2012? Lea Marolt Sonnenschein: Yeah. I will, I'll tell you. Eventually, I went to college in the US called Grinnell College. And I went there and studied computer science. So that is, number one reason why I ended up being in software. Jeroen Leenarts: If you if you enter like a college, and it's and you get the application form, it's not that you stumble, and all of a sudden you have computer science entered as your subject matter, right? Lea Marolt Sonnenschein: It's true, although I was in like a really like kind of a weird position. So in the US colleges, you don't have to pick up major immediately. So you can kind of float around. But I was in a weird position because I was funded by the Slovenian government to go there because it costs like $60,000 a year to go to college in the US. And, like one of the conditions of that scholarship was to choose a science subject. And so I was looking at them, and I was like, Okay, I don't really want I don't see myself in labs. So I guess I'll choose Computer Science. And it seems like there's prospects in this field. And this was in 2011, when there weren't that there wasn't like such high demand. And like my my class, my graduating class only had 10 people in it. It was super, super small. And then the years after, were just like, quadrupling. It was crazy. But the reason I got into apps in particular, there because I entered 2011. And then apps started 2012 was because someone in like their third or fourth year of college, freaked me out that I will not be able to get a job. And they're like, You need to get an internship and you need to have projects, and you need to have bla bla bla, to be able to get a job and I was like, Oh my god. Okay, I just started thinking about this now in my like, first, first and a half year. And the reason for that was because our curriculum was super academic. So we had very little practical applications of what we were doing. So I decided, alright, I need projects. How can I make projects? What do I like? And apps were a cool thing back then. They were just coming out. I think it was like iOS six when this was happening. So it like we were going from skeuomorphism to flat that time. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, I still remember it like the leather with like the lacing in it. And then all of a sudden, it was WWE. Yeah. With the new design language since all white and it's all flat. And people were like, well, Lea Marolt Sonnenschein: yep, yep, exactly. And I just got really interested in it. Because I was generally like, interested in design, and like coding and like doing HTML, CSS. I was doing some of that before. And then interactivity and just like solving people problems essentially. So I like put together a group but a couple of friends and we call ourselves Grinnell aptiv. And we managed to get funding from we actually got the slack handle that was called like aptiv.slack.com, which was kind of cool. Because we got it so early. But yeah, we got together and decided to like let's make apps for the college essentially like so we made this dining hall app. After which I read the menu that was going like what was going to be in the dining hall. And then we made one for like events in the calendar. And basically, we use this as a way to showcase our skills to potential employers later on for internships and jobs, etc. But then it also became this like platform where students were peer mentoring other students and helping them learn. And then it became this bigger thing. And we got funding for like 150k, to basically run this project for three years. And so became a huge part of my life to like, make apps and help other people make apps and all of that stuff. And then that's how I got my first internships. And I got like, into WBCs scholarship twice in a row. And then ended up writing for a vendor like, and, yeah, lots of things happened from there. Jeroen Leenarts: So that's also a big switch, right to go from the technical work, like writing codes and getting specs and converting that into working software. But then to actually start writing for a winlink, because they have quite a hard bar in, in accepting people, as writers, it's, it's very open to get involved with them, but then the selection process that you need to go through to actually end up on their blog, and on their tutorials. That's quite quite a lot of work, I think, very worthwhile if you get through. But once you make that switch, because writing about code is a whole different ballgame, then doing coding yourself, right? Lea Marolt Sonnenschein: If it's true, and I think, like for me when we're doing this Grinnell app dev thing, we used a lot of rays material to create, like curriculums, essentially, that we were using. So I'm super grateful to Ray for writing all that great stuff. And I ended up meeting him at a dub dub DC event. And I told them that I wanted to like write for them at some point. And they're like, Okay, cool. Yeah, come to me. Sometime later, he was super nice. He's like a great guy. And then I started working as an iOS developer, and turned around runway in New York. And after about a year, I felt like I feel like I, I know enough to start contributing in some way. And I reached out to Ray again, directly, actually, like, hey, I want to write for you. And then I had a picture that I took with him, like at the MWC. And I put that picture there and said, like, why I want to write for them. And like how impactful it's been for me to do like this Brunel, aptiv and his breakthrough, and blah, blah, blah. So I wrote this, like, big email. And he wrote me back. And he was like, you know, we're not actually accepting people right now. But I was so impressed with your email that like, let's do a try out. We don't have space on the iOS team. Right now. We do have space in our article team. So do you want to try out for that? And I was like, Sure. So I tried out for this team that doesn't exist anymore, where we wrote articles, more so than tutorials to start off with. And then from there, started writing tutorials and deck editing and doing books and videos and all that stuff as well. Jeroen Leenarts: So Joe, first piece for Ray Wonderlic, was actually an article. Do you still remember the title of that one? Lea Marolt Sonnenschein: I don't know what the title was. But it was it was actually like an article slash tutorial, because it was, how to use how to use framer to prototype your animations, and then translate them more easily into code, essentially. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, because, yeah, framer, I, I actually, it's an Amsterdam based company initially, I think. One of the one of the lead developers there is been involved with Dutch coke ads as well. So he's not anymore. But news from home? Lea Marolt Sonnenschein: Oh, yeah. I met him somewhere. Jeroen Leenarts: That's that's the thing with iOS developers, you just tend to conferences? Yeah, we didn't go we didn't go out for like two years. But slowly, we're starting again. Which actually gets me to the next topic, because I've been looking online. And I saw that you're also at a few conferences yourself as as a mentor, and I think even as a speaker. So what, what, like, what outings do you have planned for the foreseeable future? In sense of conferences and defense? Lea Marolt Sonnenschein: Yeah, so they're, I got really lucky. This is all again, coming from like, I guess when I left and then re, I started speaking at, like, my first speaking gig was with our W DEF CON, which was this conference. It was like a tutorial conference, where you had to, like your talk was an hour and a half long live tutorial, which was extremely scary and we prepared for it for about a year in advance. Just to make sure that everything was the way it was supposed to be. That kick started so on my speaking gigs. And now what I've recently been doing is helping more people start, like in tech start to do their own speaking gig. So I've been doing this workshop, I guess about, like, how do how to prepare your first tech talk, essentially. And I've given that try swift worlds last year, and a couple of small places this year. And I'm doing one and app builders in two weeks from now. So may 16, and 17th is when that's happening. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah. So and what's the biggest tip that you can give somebody who's thinking about starting public speaking? Lea Marolt Sonnenschein: Um, what's the best tip, I think the best tip is just to stop, like, stop looking at what other people have done and thinking to not do that, because it's been done already. Because everything has been done already. So like, pick whatever you care about, and whatever you're passionate about. And your experience into that topic is what will make it a great talk. Your perspective, and that is unique. And that's what you bring to the table, it doesn't like the topic really doesn't matter, you are giving your own spin to it. And that's what I tell everyone that I coach, essentially how to do a tech talk is that like, that is the one thing that's unique about each individual, your experience with a certain topic, and no one can take that away from you. So go with that. Rather than Chase like some, you know, fancy fancy new thing, or fancy new topic for the sake of it, if you're going to hate it, like you need to love the topic that you're doing, because you're gonna spend so much time with it. So that's the best tip like, stop over analyzing the topic that you're going to choose, like, put down like 10, brainstorm 10 things, and then choose one and commit, just just choose it commit, you're going to come up with something great. If you have good experience or passion for it. Don't just don't overthink that. And that's I think that's where most people get stuck. It's just like, I don't know what to talk about. So if I don't know if you have show notes or anything like that, but I can share like the 3030 like brainstorming questions or ideas that I give to people in my workshops about how to start thinking about their topics, Jeroen Leenarts: I can I can put in the link, I guess and see what people think of that. Because 30 tips is always very, very welcome. And because with people started to talk, what I noticed with them is that the hardest thing they're dealing with is first of all, sort of like a bit of stage fright. You know, you're in front of a group of people you don't know, secrets is if you're in front of people you don't know, it's actually easier than in front of people you do know, especially if it's family. And the second thing is that they have this idea that there's no place that would want them. Well, it's actually yeah, just just go out to your local meetup and say, hey, I want to do a talk. And most likely, they will grab you by, by by your clothes and track your stage because they're so happy that somebody actually comes up to them and get an idea for talk. So exactly. So go ahead, sorry. The Lea Marolt Sonnenschein: other thing I wanted to say is that a lot of the times I think people are afraid that like whatever they're going to say everyone already knows. And that this bias that we have in our heads is like what we know, that must be known by everyone else. But that's so not true. So like, you need to constantly keep reminding yourself that like, there's at least one person in the audience who knows less than you do about this topic, and you will help them. And there will always be people who know way more about the topic than you have. So like, go and talk to them after your talk and talk about your topic like that. That's what you do. You will never please everyone, but you will definitely help a lot of people somewhat Jeroen Leenarts: true. So just to switch gears a little bit. You went to Grinnell College. And then you had to choose something with science. But before that, what was your engagement with technology? When you were back in your home country? Lea Marolt Sonnenschein: Yeah, I Well, you know, there's a public talk about this, so I'm not going to be embarrassed to say it. I played a game called Neopets. And it was this game where you had pets online. There was a forum there were games you earn points and you bought stuff for Your pets and you battled with them. Lots of things. Basically, you earned avatars and trophies, etc. But you could also create, like, pet pages with HTML and CSS, and do like Guild and layouts for that. And that's how I got into like tech and a little bit of coding. Like I know, you know, purists will say, he knows not coding, but whatever it got me into it. By basically trying to make interactive pages for my pets is how I got into Jeroen Leenarts: if it's an intimate technology, I think that product actually did some good there. And besides wasting your time, Lea Marolt Sonnensc: definitely, yeah. And it also helped me learn English really well. So it was like, a plus. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay, so that got you interested in technology. But was there like a computer in the in the household? Or what was the deal that you were playing on those machines? Or were you like, the phone are, Lea Marolt Sonnenschein: you know, actually, my grandfather was a huge tech nerd, and he would always have the latest stuff. So he was really into video. He was really into computers. So I would always inherit, like, his laptops, his computers and have that so we had internet really early on for you know, Slovenia. And even like, up and he's 93 Now, but up until he was like 85, he would always have like the latest iPhone, the latest Mac, iPads and all that stuff. So I guess it was him who was like, pushing the love for like tech and new things on me. And I was gladly accepting it. Jeroen Leenarts: And it may still clear of mine nowadays. Lea Marolt Sonnenschein: He's had dementia for about seven years. But my grandma caught it very early on. And so it's like, very slowly progressing. But he's definitely kind of checked out of, you know, the tech tech world at this point. But ya know, he's, like, still can take care of themselves. Like, generally well aware of what's going on, but he just sleeps a lot. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, that's, that's, that's unfortunately, what elderly people need to do, I'm afraid. But because he's been so instrumental in like getting you access to technology. What was his stance on you actually, going into technology, becoming a software developer and being involved with computers and technology? A lot? Lea Marolt Sonnenschein: Yeah, I think he was generally very proud. I think he still is proud. Of like us. He's also he's a naval engineer by training. So yeah, I think he was like, very, very excited about especially having a girl, grandchild go into technology and computer science and all that stuff. So Jeroen Leenarts: yeah, it is true. But also horrible, that stereotype still exists, even nowadays. That it's like, not typical that that females get into technology. While actually the best team members I had over the years, most often they've been most different compared to me. So they were like, either female or they're like, from some totally different place in the world with a totally different background. And it makes such a big difference for a team to have like this. Really the diversity and to just have different perspective, because the discussions that you're having are so different. Also about Lea Marolt Sonnenschein: Yeah, and I think it's like the other way around, right? If it's just women, it's also not good. Like, Jeroen Leenarts: that has some drawbacks as well. Lea Marolt Sonnenschein: That that makes makes an awesome team. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah. Yeah, that's true. So your grandfather was very helpful in getting you access to technology. And then you got started with these pets, and then a little bit of HTML. And then at some point, somebody in the Slovenian government thought it was like a good idea to ship you off to the US, which was I think it worked out for you. Then you had to choose something with signs. You did. And then you got started as a software developer through the through the greenall, Deaf app deaf thing that you mentioned. So you had like your, your resume builders going there quite strongly, actually. So I think you might have overreacted a little bit at that point. Lea Marolt Sonnenschein: I over over corrected for how much I needed to do for sure. Jeroen Leenarts: And then you got started working and then you ended up at a company called rent runway. And that's I think, in your career been a very important place for you because you made a big switch there, right? Lea Marolt Sonnenschein: Yeah, yeah. I think overall Yeah, went around and was extremely like influential on me, not just because of the switch but also because the company When I joined was at this like interesting stage of growth at that, like I joined in 2015. No one really knew about them. People would ask me, like, when I said like, oh, we could Rent the Runway, there was a Project Runway, which was this TV show with models and stuff. I was like, no, no Rent the Runway. It's a company I promised. So it was quite small at the time, and but the mobile team was really great. But the nice thing, the really interesting thing about rental runway, and the reason I decided to go there, because I had a, I had an offer from Microsoft, to like, do a full time role. But when I was doing my internship there, and the entire building, there was one woman, and all dudes, and they were nice guys. And I still, you know, talk to my manager, from Microsoft for my internship, great guy. But it was still just old guys. And I'd rent a runway, which is a subscription service for women's clothing. Basically, there were a lot of women who were naturally attracted to working at a company that was focused on women, as well as the CEO, like both the co founders and a lot of things that creative team, we're all female. And that was really like interesting and refreshing for me to see. And yeah, like, like the the gender balance of engineers was pretty good in terms of male female. So yeah, that was a it was a really awesome company to kind of kickstart my career in and explore a lot of different things and then figure out what was working for me what wasn't working. But yeah, also make that bigger career. So Jeroen Leenarts: yeah, so because you went into a restaurant where as an iOS developer, he got out at the other side as a product manager. And that basically set you on the track of like, what we discussed, it started, it was like, some, what's the coaching also, during those years at Rennes rumble? Was it later? Lea Marolt Sonnenschein: Later, actually, yeah. So after Rent the Runway, I did some iOS work still, and then some product as well. So I was switching between the two for a while. Jeroen Leenarts: And with the, with the work that you were doing, and trends around where you became product management, you mentioned that you had some some doubts about whether or not you were on the correct trajectory, and then you got coaching and that reaffirmed you in your in your stance and the direction you were going at. But I also noticed is that you've been? You've been doing racewear LLC for a couple years as well. So is that something you do on the site? Or what's the what's the idea there? Lea Marolt Sonnenschein: Razor is the company that's behind the way, Evander like, Jeroen Leenarts: Ah, okay, yeah, got it. No, yeah, I'm looking at the logo. You said yes. That's the array when like, logo different. Good one. Yeah. But then you you're freelancing for them? Of course. Lea Marolt Sonnenschein: That's yeah, I even though I am not like actively iOS developing, I am still like working with arrays where raid ended, like, in a lot of different ways. So one of the things that we're currently working on is a really cool video series about interviewing for a role release, like iOS interviews, essentially. Like full length, 45 minutes long question and answer to help people prepare better for interviews. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay. Yeah, that's that's also a whole topic in tech. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's weird what you get to deal with if you're, if you're a candidate, some companies, they're like, what's up with these people that we want to? Do they actually want to torture people before they get hired? Or is it like, supposed to be like, totally not related to the day to day work that you will be doing within the company? Or do you actually want to have an honest view on the candidates? Lea Marolt Sonnenschein: It's ridiculous. Like I think, you know, you can the amount of time that you have to spend preparing for some interviews, especially like education companies, but even some startups is ridiculous, because like 90% of the stuff that you're going to do in the interview, you're never going to do on your job. So Jeroen Leenarts: I've never been able to compile code that was on a whiteboard for example. So but just to get things going again I'm kind of like seeing what direction I can take your finger snaps like reminder for me because that shows up in my timeline. Small trick if you have to do audio snapping fingers it's very useful so it's a some stuff that you still want to like touch upon or other areas that you think you should like highlight that a little bit more or Lea Marolt Sonnenschein: I think it's good I don't know Yeah. No, I like nothing for my end on what we want more we could have Hello, Jeroen Leenarts: okay, then I'll, then I'll start working towards something that resembles a conclusion. It'll take a few minutes, I guess still. Okay. Okay, so we talked a bit about how you got started with technology and how you made the switch to being a product manager. And that amongst those years you've been freelancing for for re render lake a lot. And now you're a company owner, it's like three completely different things, I think, different skill sets that you need different challenges that you're facing. So how do you do that? Lea Marolt Sonnenschein: I just have a problem with doing the same thing for too long, I think. And maybe it's FOMO, I don't know. But I am this like person who really likes learning new things. And like, of course, there's a lot of stuff to learn iOS development, like if you go and go niche into so many different frameworks and topics and whatnot. But I think I feel like for me, there's always a threshold of like, okay, I think I've learned enough so that, you know, I can learn more if I need to, not want to try to master something else. So at that point, I go and try to do something else, and jump into a different thing. And then that works for a while, and then again, on a new thing. And I have to say that probably from it's been an interesting journey from like, iOS development is this. It's very, like you can do it on your own, you can learn it on your own, and then product, you can't really do it on your own, because you are like, you're essentially trying to get other people to come on board, have your ideas and contribute to them, and then execute them because you're not executing on yourself. So you're like letting go of control. And then, as a founder, you can't do anything on your own. Like everything is just building relationships, and like, asking for help from people who are willing to give you some time. So I feel like you're getting you're getting like more and more and more ambiguous and what you can actually do yourself. So like, this is the first time I'm reflecting on this, but it's, yeah, I guess I'm just going away from the control everything yourself in a nice bubble, which felt very comfortable. And then just like pushing myself to the extremes of you control like 5% of what happens? Jeroen Leenarts: Well, I do hope that in the end, you you own more than 5% of the company that you Lea Marolt Sonnenschein: were like, what actually what is the outcome and what happened? Jeroen Leenarts: So but what if journey becomes a success, and it's like, three years from now, you had some serious bits with funding or whatever trade projects you want to work on? And then stuff starts to get boring, what are you going to do next? Lea Marolt Sonnenschein: And I feel like, though, if, if you're at a company, like there's never, you can never like if you're trying to be a CEO, which I'm like, I don't like falling without the CEO, I'm trying to be like, you're if things are going well, and you're growing, there's always new things that you we you need to evolve with constantly as you're growing. And so like the EU that you were a year ago is not enough for the EU that you need to be a year from now, to be able to lead like that kind of a team and that kind of a company in that like that kind of a vision and strategy. So I think this is an interesting role, because I think it challenges you over time, in many different ways. So it might be it might be the perfect role to not get bored with Jeroen Leenarts: every second imagine that like the day that you get, like the first person on board to really start working with you. So that's the I guess that would be the CTO role. And then at some point, do you already have people on on the paycheck? Or is it still loosely bound group of people that are still working on getting the bootstrapping? Lea Marolt Sonnenschein: That helped me out with lots of different things, which are amazing, but no, we don't have any payroll. Jeroen Leenarts: That'll be a day when that actually happens. Right? Lea Marolt Sonnenschein: That will be that will be a that'll be a scary and awesome day. Jeroen Leenarts: I look forward to seeing you get there because it seems that you're really enjoying what you're doing right now. And that you've really enjoyed what you did before, even though there was some some FOMO and some, some impostor syndrome, as you mentioned going on when you made some switches in your trajectory, but Yeah, I guess, I think I think we've pretty much covered everything that we could talk about right now. Is there anything that we missed any any any favorite pets or like things that like a strange hobby? Lea Marolt Sonnenschein: A strange hobby? Ah, sure. Yeah, I used to think that I was going to be a professional pianist. And from the age of six to 14, I would spend eight hours a day practicing the piano. Jeroen Leenarts: And do you still play nowadays? Or is it like a lost skill by now? Lea Marolt Sonnenschein: I play sometimes I actually have a piano in my room that the audience can't see. But you can. So yeah, I still play but more for more for myself, and my partner, Jeroen Leenarts: I can imagine that that's, it's not something that you actively partake in, like with an audience, then at some point, it becomes something that you do in an in a household intimate setting that with people that are very close to you. And then it's actually something very special that you I think you should keep near and dear to you. Because I think because if you do something that much becomes a part of you. And, and stopping playing piano that probably would feel like losing a little bit of yourself by now. Lea Marolt Sonnensc: Absolutely. Yeah. It's like, it's like embedded in my fingers like something because I just like will forever stay in my like muscle memory. I think my mom thinks that I went into computer science because I just like typing. And it was the closest thing to like a piano Jeroen Leenarts: well, about typing any specifics about keyboards that you're using? Or is it like any old general available? device is good enough? Lea Marolt Sonnenschein: I honestly just use the Mac laptop keyboard, but my partner has been obsessing with like custom keyboard design. And he has created one for me recently that I haven't started using. It has the cool Mac layout. So once I have some time I might invest into that. Yeah, Jeroen Leenarts: yeah. Yes. Let's go easy mode. Let's do a different layout and like different feel for the keyboards and this is for you layer enjoy. Diving into the defense, I think I think that's been something you've been doing over the years a lot. And I'd say keep on doing that. And, yeah, I'll make sure that we link up everything that we talked about in the show notes and send me that link for that 30 tips for getting started with speaking engagements. And yeah, I hope to bump into you at some point at a conference in Europe, maybe in the US. And we can then fff an update on how Germany is is doing and if it's if it's already, like finished bootstrapping and now on the series, or let's just see what happens Lea Marolt Sonnenschein: in the coming Fingers crossed. Yeah. It's definitely our plan to Jeroen Leenarts: Elia thanks for your time and enjoy the rest of your evening. And hopefully talk to you soon. Lea Marolt Sonnenschein: Yeah, thanks so much for having me. You have a great evening.