Pedro Piñera, maintainer of Tuist.io

Jeroen Leenarts: Hi, and welcome to another special edition. This time I have been roped in yet with the. He's a software engineer born and raised in Spain, but eventually ended up in Berlin, where he now lives with his wife. He works at Shopify, where they try and revolutionize ecommerce, like no one has done before. Most of his time, he's basically building tools for mobile developers at Shopify, but he's also doing great stuff for the iOS community with to estado all of these items, so we'll get into. So I'd like to introduce better now better welcome. Pedro Piera: Hi. Nice to meet you. Jeroen Leenarts: So, as I mentioned, you work at Shopify, and you are actually from Spain. So how did you end up in Berlin? Pedro Piera: Yeah, that was in 2015. I was living in Barcelona at that time. And the company that I was working for, was moving to Berlin, or they were initially traveling, but they decided to settle in Berlin, because the company was growing. And they told me about moving to Berlin. It sounded like a crazy idea at that time. But I was like, yeah, if I don't do it now, when am I gonna do it? So I decided to move. And yeah, I've been in Berlin since then. It's kind of like a love hate relationship. I'm always thinking about Yeah, maybe at some point, I will go back to Spain, but there is something in the city that makes me stay. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay, and let's begin at your beginning, or really what made you go into software development, and what made you do iOS development specifically? Pedro Piera: I was I was studying electrical engineering. And I spent we call it telecommunications engineer. And I liked that. We had like a few subjects on programming. At that time, I got an iPhone, I got a laptop. One of my colleagues was doing development. He was like coding on the MacBook with the iPhone. And I was like, What are you doing? He was like, Yeah, I'm building an app. And that got my attention, because I saw that he was using the camera GPS, that sounded more exciting that writing a function that threw, like, some output on the terminal. And I was like, Yeah, I have an iPhone, I have a laptop, I have the knowledge. So why don't we just like, like, I think I should learn this. And then I started building apps. And I was like, wow, this is amazing. The fact that I can access the camera, and I can, like, make something more interesting is kind of cool. And that's what got me into programming more and more, I found that very exciting. Like, I could spend like hours and hours like building things. I didn't know if I was doing the right thing in terms of like, quote, architecture, like, I didn't know what good was, I was using Dropbox. That was kind of fun. And since then, I've been like focusing mostly on the iOS and the mobile side of things. And I liked it a lot. So what year did you graduate? That was 2014. Jeroen Leenarts: So if you've been doing software development professionally for six years now, correct? Yeah. Yep. Did you do anything professionally with the telecommunications engineering that you mentioned? Or did you immediately dive into software development? Pedro Piera: I like the last year, I started working as a software engineer. So I was like, finish the studies and focus on programming. I didn't do it was very interesting. Like, I still remember many things, but I haven't applied them and like in any work, you mentioned, Jeroen Leenarts: the the the architecture side of a correctly dealing with structure when your code version control, really, how did you pick up these skills in your for your professional life? Pedro Piera: That was when I joined the first company, that we're using CI, deployment gates, you know, like finding your work in tax credit nations PUT request, I was introduced to all of that in the first company. And I guess I kind of followed what everyone was doing, but I didn't have a good sense of why all these things were necessary. It took me like a while till I finally realized, like, why it is necessary, why issues why pull requests? Yeah, I'd like to learn by doing and I think all of these things, I learned them by by doing. I started doing it, I learned like the basic commands, and I was like, Oh, this sounds very interesting. I should read more about Git than I got a, you know, like blog posts on books and that you, you learn a bit more about that stuff that you find interesting, and that's why I ended up learning like all these things. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay, and getting started with iOS development. How did that happen? You mentioned that you had an interest but what was your first project or place of work like where you got into iOS development, for real, so to say, Pedro Piera: that was so I I still remember when I was training about view controllers and app delegate. And I was copying and pasting a lot from books and blog posts, without even knowing like, how all different pieces fit together. So it was more like, I try this thing. And then I see the output. And I try again. And then I see the output. And then I read about GPS. So then I read about GPS, it was a lot of back and forth between like seeing the app and like building by copying things. As I said before, like I learned by doing, and the first app that I built was something GPS related, I think it was counting the steps. At remember, like I drove my bike everyday, to the to the university, and I will use in the app. So I was I got it something that the day before. And then in the afternoon, when I went to university, I put the phone in my pocket. And then when I arrived, the university, I was like, Oh, look, it's working, or it's not working, I should fix this. So after the lessons, I went straight, took my laptop and like fix it. I was amazing. Jeroen Leenarts: So it really was, again, the story of scratching your own itch, making sure that that stuff that you want for yourself actually got to a working state. So then you started working, and then at some point you ended up in Berlin, with were due to a company that you could then work for. That was not Shopify right. Pedro Piera: Now, that was eight feet, it was a fitness company, similar to Freeletics, you have workouts on meals. The thing is that there was a WebView with some native components. So it was challenging, because we had to figure out a way to bridge the website and the native side. It felt like building react at that point, because in the end, that's what react does it there's like some JavaScript running in the JavaScript runtime, and then call in some native API's. And I did iOS, I did Android, most of the work was done on the website. And I was focusing mostly on the on the native side, for example, the player, what's something that we overlaid on the on over the, the website, and then we play the videos, we got distractions, we translated that to something on the native side. And then there were like some kind of callbacks that we in a way called. Eventually, I decided that I wanted to focus on on iOS native specifically, there was an opportunity at that company because they wanted to continue to invest in web on their stack. And then I looked at the startups in Berlin, i and i found SoundCloud, they were like very known in the in the open source community. I liked the app, I liked music, it was perfect for Berlin, because Berlin is very well known for techno independent artists. And that was the place to be. So I did the interviews, and I got the job. And I joined Shang cloud as a as an iOS engineer, I started working mostly on the product building features, you know, like table views on here's the design, here are the specs. This is what we need to see in the app. And I slowly shifted towards more like infrastructure kind of work CI tooling architecture. And I had realized that I liked that a lot. Like when I left SoundCloud, I was doing mostly tooling automation, like make sure that developers are productive. And Shopify contacted me because they were looking for a mobile tooling engineer. For them, it was perfect. Because it's kind of like a such a niche thing. Because you need to know the platform, you need to know the language, the challenges as code on all of these things. But you would like to do that full time, like building tools full time. Not just you know, like, I drove fast link here and there. And it works. It's more not we want someone to really work closely with developers understand their challenges and build the tools that they need. And then I joined Shopify, that was December 2018. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay, so just grabbing back a bit to SoundCloud's. How long did you work there? Pedro Piera: That was more than two years, two years and a few months, I guess. Jeroen Leenarts: So when you started that was mostly user interface implementation, and then you shift your focus there to a more tooling focus for the for the rest of the iOS engineers. Yep. Okay. But that's also where tuas.io was born. Right? Pedro Piera: Exactly. That was. So we had a lot of code, like clim bills were taken a long time, we're looking at other build systems like basil on I'm back by we didn't have a big team to do such an investment, like move away from ESCO Bill system. And I was like, there needs to be a way to make those clean bills faster. So we decided to modularize the app and build something more like horizontal such that when you clean your building instead of having to build like all the code, you build your feature, maybe the core frameworks that your feature depends on So we took the monolith ESCO project, and we split it up into multiple projects, targets that represent frameworks. And when I was doing that, I was like, I think this is a good idea. But having to maintain so many good projects is not a good idea. So then I told myself, I think this is something to be to be solved, we could have done something with CocoaPods. Because in the end, you need some kind of interface to describe your projects and translate them into Xcode projects. The thing about cocoa pods is that they choose the structure of your projects, they have these pods project workspace, so I wanted to have the control of how my project looks, and then take all the complexities and all the intricacies and abstracted away such that developers don't have to think about that. And also to start, I was, I think, a few months before I left, SoundCloud. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay. So SoundCloud, you had a you had a great time there. And I think it's a place that you recommend to any iOS developer to work actually. I spoken with you on Slack. And all remarks that you made about them are always great, which is always nice to hear. But then, then Shopify came along, and they contacted you, you contact them, or how did that happen? Pedro Piera: So they contacted me. Fun fact, it was the day after I left SoundCloud, I got an email from them. And when I got the email, I was like, I don't know, Shopify. And then I went to their website to see what they were doing in the industry. And I went to their engineering blog. And I was like, wow, this is very interesting. And the fact that I will be able to do tooling full time for mobile, sounds even more interesting. So it's a yeah, let's have a chat. I was clear about the fact that I because it's a Canadian company, although these days, we're a distributed company, so we don't have like fixed offices anymore. And I told him like, yeah, if you're okay with me working from Berlin, I'm totally up for that. I will do the interviews. And they told me Yeah, it should be fine. Like, I did the interviews, I flew to Ottawa, to do the interviews there. I have to remember it was very cold, like minus 30. And since then, since that day, I said, like, I won't complain about Berlin weather anymore. Like everything went well. I joined the company. It's been great so far, like an amazing company to work for as well. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay. So if you compare SoundCloud, and Shopify as a place of work to do iOS software development, how big are the teams that that work within Shopify? And within SoundCloud? Is it like you working with like five colleagues, or 10, or maybe 100, or even more? Pedro Piera: So it's a different company setup, because SoundCloud is one is about 100, up or two, I think they have one for creators still. And is a team of I think right now, they must be between 10 and 20 people. And Shopify is a large company, like a few 1000 people, I don't have the exact number, but it's like crazy amount of people. We have teams in different locations, developing apps for different technologies and different platforms. So I don't have the exact number of mobile developers. But I can tell that it's a unique set of in a sense that you no longer build something for what one team, you build something for multiple teams, we tried to get it in multiple places. So it's kind of challenging and exciting at the same time, because we try to, you know, like talk to all of them to see what are the needs that they have and see if there are common patterns that we can extract into toolings or best practices. So it's like a completely different company set up. And both of them are great places. With Shopify, you find challenges that you wouldn't find SoundCloud because of their scale. And at SoundCloud, you will find challenges that you wouldn't find Shopify because of the product that they're building. Jeroen Leenarts: You started developing to start to at SoundCloud. And I guess Shopify was interested in you, partly due to the public work that you've done through tuas.io and rd now using tuas.io or not, Pedro Piera: no, we, we through the idea of using it but we didn't have that many modules as for maintenance being a burden. We didn't have plans to add more modules. So we stayed as it was. And eventually, we committed to React Native which means we are no longer so the problems and the challenges that twist helps solve are no longer there because of React Native so it doesn't make sense to introduce it. However, it was the thing that I built on the site I call it my baby because I for some reason I Keep, like spending time and I love building features into the into the tool. And I like guessing companies like SoundCloud using it and like, when they come with feedback I, there is something in the tool that is hard to describe and makes me spend a lot of time building it. So Jeroen Leenarts: if you, if you look at your weekly, time spent, is it like you have your day job? And then on top of that you're doing too is that yo, and then there's some spare time left? Or how does that work out for you? How do you schedule your Pedro Piera: Thursday, I don't have like a fixed schedule, something that I learned in lately is, and I've learned in that at Shopify as well, like, you can't be everywhere. But a few things where you can be, make sure that those are the most impactful, like, in twist, that translates to sort of me like being everywhere, and like pushing multiple projects for where I get people to learn about the tool. I give them the guidance, and then they take it from there. And makes me focus on the most important things, which is community like people that people have come here, they find what they need. And this doesn't really take much of my time is not like I allocate one hour every day is more like, you know, like there's this person come into the community I answer. So I can do that while want to have like get breaks working on Shopify. Jeroen Leenarts: So to start to add, when, when exactly was it like, published initially Pedro Piera: don't know the date, I know it was 2000. And I think it was 16 or 17. In dub dub, I was building as approach, which is the library that we use for reading, updating on writing ESCO projects, because the only implementation that there was at that time was CocoaPods. One, and I wanted to build it to the tooling in Swift. Okay. And I think it took me a few months after that to start building twist, and eventually how it released and the initial version was mostly focused on trigeneration. Taking IVR from the Swift package manager, mainly like this idea of you define your project in our industry file. Jeroen Leenarts: So if you if you would have to explain to a new junior iOS developer in the most simplest terms that you could come up with what is to start? What does it facilitate for me, as an iOS developer? Pedro Piera: So I would like to describe it as you take all the complex things from Xcode, you make them simpler, so you can focus on the important stuff. The thing is that, like one might wonder like, what is the complexity in Xcode? No. So, complexities are things like any other new target, how do I link things and make sure that my app is going to compile and open on the simulator. So instead of you having to think about Bill phases, or Bill settings for linking, twist does it for you, or you realize that your project takes a long time to compile, what our team would do is put one or two engineers, thinking about what changes are necessary for your project to compile fast, we delegate that to twist. So all these kinds of things for which you will have an infrastructure team dedicated the tool does it for you. And I think that's amazing, because that allows you as an iOS engineer to focus on building the building the features, and not like working on fixing the bugs in Xcode and stuff like that. Jeroen Leenarts: So if you look at to is how do you see it growing? Is it being adopted by a lot of companies and people or I was proceeding. Pedro Piera: It's hard to know the adoption because we don't have analytics. And this is something that we have been talking about. Because if we don't know how people use it, we don't know where we need to put our effort. For example, if people aren't using Command X, we don't want to put a lot of effort into that command. But if people are using generation a lot, then we should focus on that. So it's hard to tell, like how many people are using it. We have over 1000 starts on on GitHub. But I don't think that's representative of how many people are using it regarding the direction. So it all started with Project generation with the idea of workspaces. So you have one thing, which is a project that might depend on another project, and then we build this dependency graph. And then what trees does is translates that into S codes domain, you'll set things build phases, targets, schemes, and all of that. And after the version one, I was like, What is the next challenge that projects are facing and therefore we should help them with and that was automation, and like build times, because if you look at the industry, when people struggle with with build times, the next thing that they think about is back or basal however, Korea is back. And basil can mostly be adopted by the companies that can have a team dedicated to implement such a tool. And I was like, This is unfair. Because you either like if you're in between a small startup and a big company, and you can still like afford having such a team, like I wanted to is to be there helping people with those build time challenges. So that's where the idea of caching came from. Then on the other side, there's automation, like firstling, his or his thunder, on the iOS, and I think also the Android land. And it's nice, like, it gives you like so many useful lanes. But I was like, this is something that I learned at Shopify, like what if we provide like a standard interface, instead of you having to think about your task, like, again, like on the on the topic of like, your developer don't have to think about defining your CLI interface, the tool gives you something that is standard, so that you don't have to do that job. So I took the idea from Rails and Swift package manager, which is you have a project. And the things that you can do with the project is are build test liens, generate documentation. So instead of you having to define those yourself in some kind of rake file or fast file, since we know your project, we expose those commands to you and Swift package manager or something like that, you go to the directory where there is a package of the Swift, and then you do swift build, and it builds or Swift test and test. And then from there, I took the action from and this is great about like working with other programming languages, because you see IDs, and then you take them to your to, for example, this twist doc that generates the documentation of any target of your project, I took that from cargo, which is the dependency manager of trust. And I was like, This is so cool. Like, as a developer, I would like to see the documentation or framework X. And I don't want to see the code, I just want to see some kind of nice website where everything is detail. So twist doc space, the name of my of the target for which I would like to generate the documentation. And I get it on the browser. And we build that. So we keep like extending on that automation area, like adding more features that we find are useful for developers and also like focusing on their on build plans, because I think it's very important. I don't see pool invested investing a lot. I think they started doing so work on bringing ideas from baseline back into their belief system. But I think work like this will take years to introduce it into ESCO build system. So I think till then to iscan help teams. Jeroen Leenarts: So you mentioned that there are some improvements being made to the Xcode built environment. So what do you expect for the future of DUIs, then? Pedro Piera: That's a good question. I keep an eye on what Apple is doing, because there's an obvious overlap. So people are starting to use a Swift package manager for the same goal that you will use twist for, like describing your projects. The thing is that in at least like on the on the package manager side, their interface is designed for packages. So I think I see Apple like evolving to better packages into something that looks more like projects, maybe they evolved Swift package manager into some kind of project manager. And I think one thing that I would like to see Apple doing is moving away from from PVS proach. Because I think they they have been adding elements and objects to that format. And it's very monoliths, and it's very good, error, good conflict prone. And I think they should move away from that, my my guess maybe I'm wrong here. But I think Apple will, at some point include a new project format, which is not the PVS proach. That is realigned with their idea of packages being defined in packages of Swift. And if you look at the package, though, Swift, they don't have build settings like you don't, you don't talk in terms of build settings or build phases, you describe your project with these are my sources. These are main resources, this is the name, these are the platform. And these are the dependencies and that's it, they translate that into Bill setting. So I think they will provide a similar package. So sweet path for Xcode, and they will move people away from from PBX proach. And then with that an investment and they are doing taking ideas from from base OB system back into SQL system, I think you will get a project that no longer has conflicts. And that compiles fast. I don't know the details of the build system, but something that I had read, I don't remember where. But they were saying something like internally, the way the build system works is instead of using hashing, like you have a built us and then you take the input hash the input, then you get the output and then you hash the output. It doesn't work like that. It uses timestamps. That's why sometimes like things get invalidated in Xcode, and you don't know why. So I think they're changing that the build system to be more like hash based, like each task is kind of like a function where you have hashes. And this is the idea that we're applying in twist. But they're doing that they build task level. And we're doing that at the module level. So you have a module that has a bunch of files, we hash them. And then we use the hash to store the precompiled framework or pre compiled bundle inside the local cache. Okay. Jeroen Leenarts: Just to give a little recap what we discussed thus far. So you worked at at SoundCloud really liked place developed to is actually due to the engineering challenges that you've seen there. And then at some point, you switched over to Shopify. But what I do notice, when I am interviewing you there is like, you like your your like your day job, you like working for Shopify. But once you start talking about to extend something, something lights up in you. And it's very, it's very cool to hear. So I wanted to, to dive in a little bit on the person behind the keyboard. So a little bit more about Pedro, you as a person. So you currently live in Berlin, with your wife, did she move over to Berlin with you, or Pedro Piera: there was a fun story, because we are both from the same hometown in in Spain. And when I was living in Berlin, I was traveling, I was in Budapest, and she was living there at that time. And then we met, like, I posted something on Facebook. And I was like, I didn't know that you were living here. So love happens there. And I decided to move to Budapest. So I was actually living in Budapest for six months. Until we we thought that Berlin would be like a better choice to you know, like, keep growing and stuff. So we moved again, like back to, to Berlin, it was for her like, starting a new life. For me, like I have friends and everything. So that was 2018. And since then, we have been living here and I think we'll stay will stay longer. We'd like to see, we don't like the winter. But we like this. I hear Jeroen Leenarts: that a lot. There's a number of cities around the world that people once they settle there for once it grows on them. I heard yesterday the same things about Amsterdam, Berlin is also a city where you hear that a lot. So if you look at your, your life in Berlin, you mentioned that you like it a lot there. So what do you do when you're not coding? What is your what's your day look like? I know we have some restrictions are currently there's still some private life going on and stuff you just like doing for the heck of it? Pedro Piera: Yeah, like, yeah, I was going to say like meeting people that does some fortunately not possible lately. What I like from Berlin, is that it has many forests, near the city. So nine, Autumn is very beautiful. You take a break during the day, you go for a walk. And I liked that a lot. I also like running. I used to do it a lot. But now I'm struggling to find the motivation. But from time to time I go running, I listen to podcasts, I'm I kind of like that. What else do we to get what I like about the cities? Like how many different cultures like leaving the second city, like you find people from so many different countries, you talk to them, you see like different points of view on things. And that's amazing. Like, at least like from the area where I'm from in Spain, we don't have the opportunity to meet all these different cultures, which is something that I have in Berlin. And I think that's what makes the city special, like the fact that you have all these people that you can meet so many interesting profiles on people to talk to talk with, which is amazing. Jeroen Leenarts: So you mentioned podcasts, what are what are some of your favorite podcasts that you listen to? Pedro Piera: I like listening to the change log is like the merge. Like, like it's kind of like a merge of multiple podcasts. They're mostly talking about web like backend technologies, some about React. And I liked that a lot like I'm following since Shopify is Ruby and Rails company. Some of them are about Ruby on Rails on the things that are going on in that industry. And I like that and also like everything that is going on with React React Native and I don't listen to too many iOS podcasts on Swift podcast. It's been like a long time with like following up with everything that's going on, so Jeroen Leenarts: okay and as a as a Spaniard how how do you cope with the with Berlin climate because it's it must because you already mentioned that Ottawa is too cold for you. Pedro Piera: It for riddling is not the temperature is the when it's gray and rainy it can be like that for a week, which is Fermi's very depressing. The fact that you, I like to wake up and see the sun when I wake up and I don't see the sun. I feel like I don't like this. So something that I learned. And remember, like when I moved to Berlin, I went to the supermarket and I saw that they were selling pita mean, in the supermarket. And I was like, Oh, this is something that I would expect to see in the pharmacy, but not in the supermarket. Eventually, I understood why they were selling vitamins in the supermarket because you need them. So now something that I do is take vitamins, because if you don't see the sun, like there are some vitamins that you cannot take from the sun, obviously, because there is no sun. So now I buy them. I think it helps but it's hard to tell when I something that I hate is when it's 3pm. And it's dark. And I'm working. And I'm like I don't like this. So I tried to shift this cable I started like a bit later. I can't Jeroen Leenarts: I can't imagine that it's not a lot. But in in Berlin, compared to where you live in Spain that when it's winter, the days are noticed. nodes have to be shorter, at least the daytime. Yeah. So you mentioned some podcasts, you mentioned running, you mentioned, like liking to, to integrate with all the different cultures that are available in in Berlin. Are there any other books or resources or things that you would recommend to basically anybody who's listening to this? Pedro Piera: Yes. So lately, I've become really interested in UX and product. Because in the end, I think for developers designing and developing tools, you have to have this kind of product thinking. And I like to simplify things a lot. So I read a lot about UX and UI, how to design and build things that people like to use. And I had read a book, which I liked a lot is called refactoring UI, which is the same book for developers, tells you like all the tips that you should know, when designing our website, like things about phones, about colors, there were things that I didn't know about that when you read them. It's like, it's so obvious, but you need someone to tell you. I don't recommend that to everybody. I was also reading this review, I woke because I wanted to understand more about the framework, the one front objective CIO, I like their books a lot. I think they're very well written concise, they go straight to the point. And they go deep in some areas. For example, in case of Swift, Swift UI, this plane, like how the, the tree of components are represented internally. And then when I read about it, I find like a lot of similarities with with React and React Native, like you read about something and you're like, Ah, this is the same thing in React. So you see, like, the industry is doing kind of the same things. But obviously, like translated to different domains, so you've done react and JavaScript in this Jeroen Leenarts: case, okay. So I will make sure to link those two for my show notes. Or any other things that you'd like to mention or talk about? Pedro Piera: No, well, one thing that I like in in the in at Shopify, I'm manager of the React Native foundations team, which is, which means now I do more like people management. And this is another very interesting area, to to learn about. Because you come from somewhere where everything is very logical. And then you finish your day. And you can count how many PRs emerge, where you go from there to work with people where things are very deterministic. There are things that you can't explain about people's behaviors. And then you need to learn about that. And you finish your day and you cannot count how many big marriage you can count how many meetings you had. So I read about that from time to time to become a better manager. I tried to do to be nice to help people. And it's so similar to what I do on toys like, like for me like people is always a very important component in everything that we do. And I do my best so that we don't forget that behind so far. There's there's always people Jeroen Leenarts: so it's an interesting topic, actually. So if you if you look at working with computers, the pull request that you mentioned, and working with people, what was the biggest challenge when you started doing This, this shift in your work Pedro Piera: for me to challenge is understanding the people like you, you have a team, with people with different cultures, with different backgrounds with different experiences and trying to understand what motivates them, and combine them or get them to work together in a way that you get the most of each person. This is very challenging. It's like doing Tetris dude, you need to first get to know the person and that takes time, like a new person joins the team, like the first day that person won't tell you I like this, I don't like that. Eventually, you know, when you know when you know everyone in your team, and you can put them in a way that you get the most out of each one. That is amazing, challenging, but amazing to see. So Jeroen Leenarts: it would it suffice to say that the people that you that you work with that you in some aspect, also manage that once they would leave your team, go to other ventures, so to speak. Is it your goal to then make sure that the people that you get into contact with that a leaf as a better software engineer, that they compared to the data that came in, and that in hindsight, when they look back at their time and experience with you and your team, that they have fond memories of that and that they have a feeling that they've grown? Or Pedro Piera: yet look what I do with them is? So at Shopify, we like to value a lot the impact that people have at the company. And this means, like for software engineer, like what can I do to create impact in our cases, like you see what problems people have you identify them, you translate them into some kind of solution, you execute that, which will be what most software engineers too. And then eventually, you roll that out to users, that means a bit of general like communication marketing. And I like them to learn about this whole process, like there is no product manager or project manager is you a problem users, your software is killed, and you're able to drive everything from the beginning to the end, when you see them like mastering this is beautiful. And I think this is something that they remember a lot the fact that you know, like, when you think about talking about Shopify, like this feature x or 2x, the fact that you were part of device in this, unlike executing that. And given that to users, I think that's something that they remember a lot. So most of developers, they come with the, with the experience of you know, I was working in this product team. So I had a designer, I have a product manager, project manager. And I was getting the specs, the design, the tasks, so the only work that I had to do was translate that to UI kit for swift UI, or URL session, whatever. But here is not. You don't have designs, you don't have specs, you don't have tasks, you have a problem. And then you take it from there. Okay. Jeroen Leenarts: Are there any last parting words of wisdom that you like to give to my listeners? Pedro Piera: Yeah, so one thing that I, that I like to learn a lot in my day today, and I think is very useful to apply for anyone is like, things are getting very complex. We live in a very complex world. And we see that in silver, because over reflects what we see in the world. Instead of embracing the complexity, or even like getting frustrated, because you don't understand the complexity, make the effort to understand it such that you can make it simple. And that's what I did with twist, i There were some complexities that I saw I didn't like and then I made them simple. And because even though we like understanding complexities, we like to work with with Simplicity's, and this is something that I would encourage everyone to do like whenever you find something complex, think about like, can I make this simpler so that I can work with simplicity everyday. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay. And there you have it, people Pedro worked at SoundCloud now at Shopify, and his biggest passion seems to be to stuff ao. And his recommendation is to, to make things simple for your end users and to improve your environment and your your peers every step of the way. Thank you better. Pedro Piera: Thank you. Thank you for having me.