Rudrank Riyam, developer relations engineer at Codemagic

Jeroen Leenarts: Hi, and welcome to another special edition of our podcast. I'm sitting here with Roland Korea. He is situated in India right now. And I actually had him on the Twitter space recently on basically well on short call, which was very nice of him to to be able to do that. So please, welcome to a podcast How you doing today? Rudrank Riyam: Hi there. Thank you for having me on your podcast. So I am doing great. It's almost 1am in the morning in my timezone. And I'm looking forward to recording this podcast. Jeroen Leenarts: So you're basically being a night owl right now? Rudrank Riyam: Yes, because I know if I record in the evenings, there will be dogs barking in the background? Jeroen Leenarts: That's that's a good thing to think about that. So but people who don't know you, what is it that you do nowadays? Because I know that you recently made made the switching careers. But what are you doing nowadays? Rudrank Riyam: So right now I am Developer Relations engineer at Code magic, which is a mobile CI CD platform. And my job is related to advocating and helping the iOS community. Jeroen Leenarts: And and why should people use code magic and not, for instance, Azure pipelines or GitHub actions. Rudrank Riyam: So for me having a visual aid and a friend D. So according to me, and all the other CI CD platforms I have tested, but code magic is the most friendly one out there, which has a reasonable pricing as well. And it is very easy to work and create a pipeline from scratch, especially if you're working on an iOS platform. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay, so and if people want to know more about code magic, they should look you up online, and follow you online as well. Because we will put your Twitter handle in the in the show notes, of course. And definitely have a look at code match because I had a look myself, it looks really cool. I haven't had a use case myself yet, but I'm sure I will find one in the near future. So um, but you did something else before you became a developer advocate at Code magic, right? Rudrank Riyam: Yeah, yes. So let's, if I go back to my origin story, I recently graduated from college last year, during this pandemic, and it was a wild experience altogether. So back in 2017, I got a MacBook Air because MacBooks are cool, right? And my colleagues and my classmates had Windows laptops, and they said, I cannot play games on the MacBook. So I wanted to do something that the windows machine could not. So iOS development was one of them. So I started with the course from Stanford University CS 193. P. I did it for like, a couple of days, it was too hard for me, I gave up on that. Then after a few months, I started with a Udemy course, which was a lot easier to understand. Jeroen Leenarts: I which Udemy course was that if you still remember so. Rudrank Riyam: So it was the course by Angela, which was, which is really popular. See now. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay. And so you mentioned you got like, from college like a year ago. So how long have you been a professional software developer? Rudrank Riyam: So if I have to actually count the professional years, it's actually zero. But if I count my freelancing years, it's almost 1.5 years. Yeah. Jeroen Leenarts: So you started doing some work on the side next to your education, right? Rudrank Riyam: Exactly. Like when you're having a zoom call, as a university, you have a lot of time to spare. And you can actually earn money on the side, Jeroen Leenarts: I can imagine. So I remember that you also did some some articles with different outlets. So for instance, with stream that's where I work right now, but also for some other companies as well. So how did you get into this article writing then because basically, you have no resume, you are still studying. And for some reason, you were able to convince somebody to let you write an article for them. Rudrank Riyam: So that's a great question. So I think my breakthrough happened in 2019 when I won the WWDC scholarship, and after that, when I went to conferences, everybody just talk about because it's a dream of an iOS developer to go and be a part of WWDC in person. So after winning that conference, I started looking up internships. And a year later, I actually ended up being at Apple working under the voice control team. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay. So what does it take to actually become a student scholarship participant for Apple? Rudrank Riyam: So the requirement is that you have to create a Simple playground. You're given like 10 to 15 days, and you have to create an Xcode playground or playground on your iPad. And it should be creative and innovative. Jeroen Leenarts: And what did you create? And Rudrank Riyam: so, at that time, my mother was a special educator, and she had some problems teaching her his children, because she had to manually create the materials for them. So I wanted to create an app that automates a process where she can have 3d and AR experience for her children, for the students that she's teaching. Jeroen Leenarts: And it's your mom still using this, this products? Or is it since then, like neglected and not usable anymore? Rudrank Riyam: So I think I never got the time to ship that. But I think it was a great experience. And I was very proud of doing that in just 10 days of time. Jeroen Leenarts: So and then you got the scholarship and you went to WWE in 2019. Correct? Rudrank Riyam: Yes. The last InfoCenter Yeah, you're Jeroen Leenarts: lucky man. So but what was it like for you to basically have zero to none experience with iOS development and being at WWDC, and I know that Apple does some extra things for their students, our participants, but what was the experience like then Rudrank Riyam: I think it's the VIP treatment that Apple gives you as a scholar. It just unreal. Like it's like a red carpet for you have an all the other developers who have been like waiting since the morning to enter the keynote. And you are the first one to enter before them. So having going from none experience to Doctor DC as a scholar, it was a kind of big breakthrough for me. And and that's when I started my Twitter account. Yeah. Jeroen Leenarts: So but you mentioned that the apple students scholarship was really helpful in getting you going, which are freelancing, and like the writing. But how did that help you that? Rudrank Riyam: So if you're a scholar, it gives you an edge over other people, because let's say if you are in recruiter, and you know about a WWDC scholarship, so you will know, you know that this person has worked very hard and knows the basic concepts of iOS development. So the, this gives you an edge over other students. So that also helped me when I was applying to Apple for an internship. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay. So and then the the internship at Apple was also like, a sort of a breakthrough moment, I guess, because it's a big company with big name. And it's something you can put on your resume. Right. So what was your internship about, so it was something with voice you mentioned. Rudrank Riyam: So I interned with the accessibility Speech Team, which deals with the voice control and macOS serine. And I basically worked on The Voice control part. And I cannot talk about the project I worked on, because of the usual NDA issues. But the project gave me such insight of working at a company at the scale of apple that I couldn't imagine as a normalized developer, Jeroen Leenarts: okay. So then, but then you had the scholarship, and then the internship, and then basically had something on your resume, and then what somebody just called you or you started looking for jobs or roles as like a side hustle next to your education. Rudrank Riyam: So in that time, from the scholarship to the internship, I was very active on Twitter, like I started sharing my experiences. So at that time, Apple released swift UI framework. And I started actively using it and creating my own apps and sharing everything I did with the framework. So that helped me have a good audience on Twitter. So by the time I got the internship, and after successfully doing that, I started getting full time offers as well. So I didn't have to worry about applying to companies. Jeroen Leenarts: That's, that's very nice. And the writing part, how did that work out to them? Because writing code and writing articles, it's two very different skill sets, right? Rudrank Riyam: Yes. So if I go back to being teenage kid, I used to write a blog, a lot of blog post, just random experiences of my own. And that was a habit that I created back and like when I was like, 10. Yeah. And that continued. And as I mentioned, that I used to share a lot about my experiences on using Swift UI. So by the end of No, by the end by the beginning of 2021, I was writing. So so sorry, I missed the date. So by the end of 2020, I wrote an article about accessibility in Swift UI like Accessibility in widget kit. And that article got very popular on medium. So when I published that article, and after a few months, a company reached out to me that they're the marketing manager reached out to me that they read this article, and they want me to write for them. And as I already loved writing, and I was just doing it for free, and they were offering me money. So it was a win win case for me. Jeroen Leenarts: And our article was that Rudrank Riyam: so the article, the first topic I chose was on lazy. H grids and lazy grids and safety why? Okay, Jeroen Leenarts: and but writing like on your own as as, as a kit really? On online? Did you get any feedback from people? Or did you have any materials available that helped you develop your writing skills? Or what what was the process for you? Because just writing stuff in itself doesn't make you better? Right? You need to feedback, right? Rudrank Riyam: So I think that's a great question. And I understood this back early, because when I realized that, when you're reading a lot, you're writing improves automatically. So I used to read a lot of books by Ray Wonderlic, because that was the main thing back then. And then I started reading books by Paul Hudson, his book on, if you're an a surf developer, how to get into Objective C, that book was a great blessing for me when I was interning at Apple. So that's how I got to understand how, like the pro people write articles and books, basically, so and Jeroen Leenarts: if you would like, give a short overview of your writing process. So basically, you come up with an idea to write about some topic, what's the process, then what's the steps involved from getting from the idea to a published article. Rudrank Riyam: So the first idea is just think and brainstorm about the topic itself, then create an outline, just rough headings and bullet points about the idea. So you have like 10 to 15 bullet points, and then start to expand on each one of them individually. Jeroen Leenarts: And and then you also make sure that the outline itself has a decent structure, or is that still something you do later? Rudrank Riyam: So the outline part is, it depends from Article to Article, like, you have just an introduction and conclusion and everything in between. And it also depends on the sample project, because nailing the sample project is very hard, because you have to create a starter project and a final project and have to make sure that the final project actually matches what you have done in the starter project. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, yeah, just the whole sample code bit and just getting that right. You mentioned something earlier that you was posting on medium as well, what's it like that you publish something on your blog and then cross posted it to medium and link back to your blog? Or was it something that you only put on medium. Rudrank Riyam: So at that time, I was only putting out on medium, and some publishing publishers reached out to me back then, like better programming and the startup, and they were big names, and they had a lot of reach. So when they reached out to me, and I published in their publication that helped me a lot to reach more developers, okay, and subsequently, more people who I could write for. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay, so basically, if you just recap what we talked about right now, let's we started at, like, 2019, that you were in college, and you got your scholarship. Then the year after you got your internship with Apple in, then you started basically doing some stuff on the side. And then you got job offers as well. So you started working as an iOS developer? And then a couple months ago, because we're in March 2022, I think it was December 2021, that you switched careers, right. Rudrank Riyam: Okay, so what happened was that after I graduated college, I had this dilemma, like if I want, do I want to stick to a particular company working as an iOS developer? Or do I want to go and explore more and freelance with other startups, or light on my own. So I took that risk of going from getting multiple, full time offers to just being a freelance person, and just trying to get more clients from Twitter. Yeah. And then after having that period of freedom and enjoying everything, I came back to the full time job and December 21, to join good magic as a developer relations engineer. Was Jeroen Leenarts: there like an offer that it was so good that you said, I'm, I'm silly if I don't accept this, or was it more like okay, I've tried this freelancing stuff. Maybe I like a full time job better or what was the what was the thought process for you? Rudrank Riyam: So I think that's a great question again. So if I have to answer it, honestly, it was a great offer in itself. And I, it was my intuition that I thought that the culture, there was a great thing that I wanted to continue for years, and grew as a person from developer relations engineer to a head of Employee Relations at this company itself. Yeah. Jeroen Leenarts: So how long have we working there already talking about becoming the head of developer? Rudrank Riyam: That's like a future thing? It's like, almost three months now. Yeah. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah. And, uh, you're the only developer relations focused person within the company right now. Right? Yeah. So you're basically trailblazing within the company? And, yeah, if you do a good job, then naturally you will progress with the company, because it's quite small company still, right. Yeah. And so we had like, the the college days till now, basically. We also talked a little bit that when you were in your teens, you were writing blog posts. Why were you writing these blog posts back then? What was the what was the idea there? Just for the fun of it? Or did you want to share something with specific people that were not living in the direct surroundings? Or where you will live in Brighton? Or Rudrank Riyam: I think it was just an online outlet, where I am just sharing my feelings and everything you do as a French teenager. And that was my only motive. It was just a fun for it. Okay, so and how are you appreciating it? And Jeroen Leenarts: how did you get started them? Because I reckon that at some point, you had to figure out how you can write something and put it online. And what did you use back then to to publish stuff? Rudrank Riyam: So back, then we had a wordpress.com, which was the easiest way to publish anything on as a blog, you just open a subdomain type of wordpress.com website, and with a few clicks, and on the WordPress editor, it just very easy to just publish your blog was back then. Yeah. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah. But were already hands on with with software development back then? Or was it something that developed later? Or was it actually something that developed because of your experience with publishing stuff through WordPress? Rudrank Riyam: So back then, it wasn't about software development at all, it was just how do I afford it? It was just random stuff, just having an outlet online. And I never thought about writing technical articles unless, so in I was reading this book on combine into 19. And I got this idea, because I got this idea on creating an article on creating grids related views in Swift UI, because back then we had no such native view. So I thought, let's just do it and just publish it for the fun of it. Yeah. And I got a great response on that. And I was like, Okay, maybe maybe I can just like technical article as well. Jeroen Leenarts: So but what I'm trying to figure out is, at some point, you had to choose your education, you had to choose a college education. And I'm guessing that that was something related to software development. Rudrank Riyam: Yes, so it was a information technology and mathematics degree. Okay. Jeroen Leenarts: But what made you decide to pick that direction in in your education? Rudrank Riyam: So, in my last two years of school, I was actually doing computer science as a different as a optional subject. And at that time, it was fun to play around with C++. Jeroen Leenarts: Wow, it was fun to play around with C++. Do you know what to say? So let's let That's intense. So you started playing around, because there was like, an optional subject that you that you opted for during your what is it like high school or what is it something at least when you're like, 18, right? Rudrank Riyam: Yes. So also, there was this FOMO fear of missing out if you don't join computer science, he will stay behind. So it's like, if everyone is doing it, let's do it as well. Jeroen Leenarts: And then all of a sudden, it clicked in your head. This is actually interesting. And maybe I should pursue this as a career. That's interesting, really, because you're not something that started with software development that at a young age then right? Yes, so what what did what what were you interested in when you're like, in your nine years and 10 years old? Rudrank Riyam: So I at that time, it was all about music. I wanted to be a guitarist, like, do a full time job and during the weekends have a concert, as well. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay. And did you actually learn to play your instrument? Rudrank Riyam: So I did, I played like the piano for like, five, five or six years and then I also played guitar for seven or eight years and Jeroen Leenarts: what is your guitar Piano. Rudrank Riyam: I think now it guitar is more easier. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay. And so you got started in music, nice education. And then there was some optional subject matter. And that ended up in, in a college degree with computer science. Rudrank Riyam: Because that's the safest in at least in my country. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay. Yeah, I know, India has a very large tech sector, and also a large, large number of job opportunities in the tech sector. So was it something that your, that your parents or your guardians were like, very happy about that you were going into technology? Rudrank Riyam: I think the is that a rhetorical question? And answer to that is yes. Jeroen Leenarts: Cool. So because what is what is your, your origin really in India? Is it like, where are you at? In India when you were a kid? Rudrank Riyam: So I spent like 22 years in Delhi, the capital city of India, and recently shifted to a nearby city, Google. Okay. Jeroen Leenarts: And I grew up on is that like, a city that also has a big tech hub? Or what what's, what's it? Yes, it's just shifting technology. Rudrank Riyam: Okay, not kind of, but you get the idea. Jeroen Leenarts: So yeah, because I know India is like, a huge country and as a very large population there. But also, if you're at a right geographic position, in in India, it has a big influence and a big impact on the types of work and the types of companies that you can work for. Somebody, what are your plans now, because you're already you did a lot of things in just a couple of years. And you're already talking about maybe at some point be the head of developer relations within a company, by right now, it looks very obvious to organically grow in that direction will encode magic. So what's the plan for you? Or is it just you take things as they come? Rudrank Riyam: I think, really, I want to focus on being very, really created iOS development, and having interacting with other developers and speaking at conferences, getting better at the skill and be great. Like if I have to talk about five years down the line, I see myself more into developer relations and not into is engineering as such. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, we'll see. We'll definitely keep an eye on you on Twitter conferences. That's also something I wanted to talk about with you. How many outstanding cultural f4 paper do you have running right now? Rudrank Riyam: So for now, I have submitted two three, and I'm just paying for the Ceph leads on Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, yeah. So that's, that's Adam Rochus conference. Rudrank Riyam: So I missed the so it's swift heroes. I'm paying for the 50 euros. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, that's in that that's next month already. Right. Rudrank Riyam: Exactly. They are still in evaluation for some reason. Yeah. They Jeroen Leenarts: they take their time, just because they, I think they mostly want to make sure that they pick speakers, but then those speakers have to commit to actually be participants. And then they don't close off all the costs for paper because they are they have to be able to select people when they when they go through their list of talks, really? What are some of the typical subject matter that you would like presenting about? Rudrank Riyam: So right now, it is mostly related to Ci CD, because I'm working in that industry. And other than that, I would really like to present on like some topics related to accessibility, or Swift UI or something related to music, good. Jeroen Leenarts: Music, it would be fun actually. Yeah. So are you submitting as a CFP to Swift leads? Rudrank Riyam: So good magic is I think the platinum sponsor, so I will admit, probably speaking. Yeah, Jeroen Leenarts: I think having your company be a sponsor, it does increase your opportunities in the sense of speaking and I still do like it when conferences they have to go through their call for paper process, even though it's mostly a feedback mechanism then because they you submit something and then maybe the conference goes like this is a bit too much on company can you like make it a bit less like product pitchy which is, which is always good because then they really help you get a better talk on the stage in the end. So other conferences that you have your eyes on as possible opportunities for attendance or maybe on stage presence? Rudrank Riyam: So I think I really want to attend in Spain as an attendee. I don't know if I want to apply as a speaker because it's, it's a great conference in itself. And we have iOS dev UK that is coming back this year. Jeroen Leenarts: And also one that you might want to look at is apt def con.nl. They are going to open their skulls for paper soon. I think that's an Amsterdam based conference. And it that's a more wider, targeted conference. It's reasonably small 300 or 600 attendees, but they target anything mobile. So Android, iOS flutter, React Native, and some other technologies that I'm probably forgetting right now. So yeah, I'm really curious to see you on stage at some point, because I haven't seen any talks done by your book, because you mentioned you did quite a number of talks already. So what else conferences that were more in the geographic area of India or also in other countries already, or? Rudrank Riyam: So in 2019, I used to present a lot in my locals with meters. And I haven't spoken at a conference yet. Okay. So it was mostly related to voiceover voice control, and dynamic type in my local meetups. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, basically sharing all your learnings from your experiences at Apple rights while still respecting the non disclosure agreement. Rudrank Riyam: Yes, so anything that is public, that's what I only, that's what I put in the presentation. Okay, Jeroen Leenarts: so it sounds like you have quite a lot of experience yet. But it's just that little, that little push that you need to really get started at a conference, really? So do you have any videos available of you by any chance? Rudrank Riyam: Unfortunately, I don't I really wanted to record but at that time, I was really nervous. And I just wanted to present and get over with it. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, that's always a bit exciting to be on stage and to just, you know, have people looking at you, but then knowing that you've been rigged that you're being recorded, that's that, and I don't know, it adds another level of tension really. So um, so something we didn't talk about yet is your blog, because recently, you've been quite active on your blog. That must have been for a reason, right? Rudrank Riyam: I started with a News, New Year's resolution that I will post every single day on my blog. And in January, I actually posted on 30 days out of 31 days. So the only thing I wanted to inculcate is the habit of writing, because whenever I am stuck on something, and then I'm searching it on again on StackOverflow, and I see that it has a purple purple drink, that means I had visited it before as well. I want to just put it on my blog, so other developers can understand. If they face the same problem, they can also go through that my blog. And my future self can just look at my blog itself. Jeroen Leenarts: So basically using a blog as a sort of notepad to yourself, but then a little bit better structured so that people passing by also have some value from it. Rudrank Riyam: Exactly. And I think that's a great way to start with blogging in the first place. Jeroen Leenarts: So but is there a reason that you started blogging more frequently? Is that something you did intentionally? Rudrank Riyam: Yes, I wanted to write more. I wanted to get more into the EOS community and have a more wider audience reading my words. Jeroen Leenarts: And how are things working right now? Because you're writing more frequently? Are you seeing more traction or what's what's happening right now for your blog. Rudrank Riyam: So in that in the month of January, I the growth was tremendous. I think it was like five or 10x growth. Like if I was seeing like 20 visitors a day, it went 200 to 150 visitors a Jeroen Leenarts: day. Oh, that's, that's that's a good start. Right? Rudrank Riyam: It was it was and it was exciting. When someone, US senior iOS developer messaged me that they are loving my blog posts. It was just it just kept me going. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, it's the feedback. That's always helps, right? So I'm just just looking at your blog. And you mentioned that it's intentional that you started writing more. Is it something that at some point, you decided, okay, now I'm going to start more writing more frequently? Rudrank Riyam: Yes, so I always had this fear of writing in public like, what if some grumpy engineer and grumpy senior iOS engineer on Twitter just post my link and said, Why is this guy writing he should just go back and learn the basics of iOS development. I always had this fear. I never had such opinion, harsh opinions. But I always had this fear and I wanted to break it in this 222 As a newer, New Year's resolution, Jeroen Leenarts: okay, so a New Year's resolution to write like, more frequently like once a week or once every two weeks. So what's the plan then? Rudrank Riyam: Back then it was writing daily, but then I got exhausted daily. So it's, it's insane what I wanted to write fearlessly. And I achieved that. And I'm very proud of that portion. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay. And so you basically have a job as a developer relations, person within code magic, and you write your own block. And those are two separate things. But do you see any overlap between these two activities, or is code magic supporting your, basically, work on your online profile? Rudrank Riyam: So in my daily day job, I usually, mark as we are in this pandemic phase, the content that we are posting is mostly related to articles. And I've been shipping like two to three articles every month at Code magic. So it was just a side thing for me to write on my blog as well. And the company also supported my me writing on my personal blog. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay. So it's, it's, it's working for you in the sense that you can use the skills that you learn as a teenager, and developed over the years, that you're actually using that for your day job and for your basic. Well, yeah, your sight thing? Really? Rudrank Riyam: Yes, I feel like if I have to look back 10 years and tell the teenager, I mean that you're going to actually get paid for this. He won't really get this. Jeroen Leenarts: So and Do you consider yourself lucky? Or is it something that was achieved by by working hard, because it was like a plan behind all the things that you started doing at some points or Rudrank Riyam: so if I have to be really honest, in 2020, I applied to Raven lake for the writing program. And I went through all the rounds. And it was a two month process. And in the end round, the team leader told me that you you should work more on your writing skills and the way you explain to other developers. Yeah. And that was a, for me, that was a point where I wanted to, it was a start of a spy Driven Development kind of thing, where I wanted to write more and more till I reached the point where I'm everywhere, if that's the thing. So that's how I started writing more and didn't stop after that. Jeroen Leenarts: So basically, again, getting some feedback, even though it's you got declined for the role. It still was, was good to get the feedback then. So yeah, I'm just thinking. I think we covered everything now. Because we talked about your block your education, stuff that you did before that. Do you work at Gold magic? Rudrank Riyam: I think, yes. That's the list I had. Okay, cool. Jeroen Leenarts: Record people find you online. Rudrank Riyam: So you can find me online, everywhere, at road round cream, a very simple, unique name. And I'm very happy that I've penned snail research like that. Because if you just search for a drunk you on Google, I have like the best SEO, SEO out there. Jeroen Leenarts: And you can't miss your ad. It's good to know. But I will make sure to link you from the show notes like Twitter and your blog. And I think everything else is pretty much linked from those two online venues. So Rhuddlan, I'd say, thank you very much for your time. And I'm looking forward to hopefully meeting you in person at a conference because I really hope that one of those calls for papers, bubbles up and get selected by a conference organizer, because that would really be I think, the start of something really cool. Because you're just getting that first public engagement with like, presentation. Getting that opportunity is really going to open a lot of doors for you, I think. So fingers crossed that we will get to see each other in person sometime this year. And thanks for your time. Rudrank Riyam: Thank you for having me on your podcast.