Special: Daniel Devesa Derksen-Staats

Jeroen Leenarts: Welcome to another special of my podcast. I'm sitting here with Daniel defesa. Derek stats, he describes himself as a passionate developer with a vibe with a wide variety of experience in iOS. And while he was at university here, he has actually founded the company. He's been building in house projects and also apps for clients. And then he stopped developing since then, on iOS, I will cut that Daniel has worked in startups like social network, banana tea, music cubed, and he has developed mp3 tracks music app, and he is also a big part of bigger companies like dBc, building the BBC News, and BBC plus apps Skyscanner. And now Spotify. Well, that's quite an interesting resume after Daniel. Hi. Daniel Devesa: Hi, John, how are you? Thanks for having me. In the podcast, Jeroen Leenarts: what I find interesting is that you also wrote a book on accessibility for iOS applications. So we'll definitely dig into the experience you have on that. But first, I would like to get to know you a little bit because I don't know you very well. Most people I had on my podcast were people that I knew from the past from my cocoa hats or now or other activities that I did. So can you tell a little bit about yourself? Just a little bit, your origins? Where did you grew up? Where did you go to university? First job, stuff like that? Daniel Devesa: Of course. Yeah, I was born and raised on a small city, in the east coast of Spain called Serbia. I think the closest cities that people may know us, or millennia or relic and so it's yeah, it's actually the closest point in the peninsula to the ballet, Balearic Islands, to the Ibiza, for example. So when a clear day, from BT, you can see i beta across the C. Spiegel. And, yeah, I moved to volunteer to study at the university to volunteer. And I think my origin story us as a developer starts, I think, around 2007. When I get my my first MacBook, it was one of the first Intel processor Macbooks, I think one of those plastic white, shiny MacBooks. And on the, on the next year, I think Apple released already the iPhone SDK. And I got the iPhone 3g, as soon as I could. And I started playing a bit with the with iPhone SDK version. Jeroen Leenarts: Did you have any? Did you have any software development experience before that? Or was the the purchase of the MacBook Actually, your entry into software development? Daniel Devesa: Yeah, I was starting my my degrees in computer science. So So I had some subjects on software engineering. And yeah, I found, like, really fascinating to able to develop these small pieces of software that run in your pocket Jeroen Leenarts: and say, and you mentioned computer science. So you did some studies in that direction. Daniel Devesa: Yes, correct. I, it's a bit complicated. I think right now is a bit more unified across Europe. But back then, in Spain, you could do a three year degree in computer science and a five year degree. And it wasn't the five one. So usually, I think you don't relate that to kind of doing like a master's degree on computer science. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, three years bachelor and five years, a master's degree. You actually started a company while you were in university? Daniel Devesa: Yeah, that's correct. So basically, I was down one day doing some some iPhone development, I, I wanted to do a video game because obviously, most most of our engineers want to be video game developers. I wasn't in that in between lessons. And then a teacher saw me, he came by saying that he had a proposal for our master thesis around mobile development. And if I was interested, so I first started doing some mobile stuff in university and doing some research as well. But they wanted to really start releasing stuff that people could use. So we got together with some colleagues at the University and we found it the Swissy and it was our kind of a small, like, software engineering company. We we our goal was always to do our own projects on our own bollocks because we had a ton of ideas back then there was pretty much everything and it was very new. So it was a lot of things to do. But we we started doing some work for for clients to do some a bit of cash before before we could actually the orange stuff. So that Jeroen Leenarts: that's the company called this sheet sell this fishy that's facing this VT. Okay, so and what happened to this company? Daniel Devesa: It lasted for a few years, basically, we all started finishing university, we started getting a real job that could pay your bills, and then working in parallel on our spare time. And we can turn on this feature. The problem was that, yeah, that initial idea where we wanted to do some, some money work for third party clients, ended up first taking a lot of time. And also, we didn't and ended up doing much, much money at all, as well. For many reasons, I mean, it was very close to the assessor. It was very difficult to get clients, if you got one, it was very difficult for them to pay. Like, we thought it was a fair amount of money for for a project. And also we were quite young. So I think companies tended to say the thing. You know, like we can, we can probably reduce bias for this for these guys. But But yeah, we ended up doing our own project, it was called Eva with the game, actually, it was called undocked, we live together with a design agency had a nice area and working the designs. But the game didn't work really well. By that time, we will have jobs and not have the time to spend on them on your was quite difficult to keep doing that at the same time. Jeroen Leenarts: So this PT ended at like the end of your studies, and then you went to banana tea to actually have a salaried job. Daniel Devesa: Yeah, I was I was kind of playing in parallel. So this route, the physio was still going on. But when I moved to one entity is when I actually met the design agency that proposed us to do the video game. And one of the reasons I moved to an entity which was in Barcelona, is because it was a startup that I found really, really interesting. And I thought by working at banality, I would gain a lot of knowledge on on actually how to monitor startup and small company. Jeroen Leenarts: So it's actually an interesting topic that you address there. So you actually picked a specific company to work for, not only based on location, but also on what you could learn at the company itself. Daniel Devesa: Yeah, I think it's, it's been a driving force of my career thing. So I, I tried to do move, when I was starting to think that I wanted to learn some something in particular, I try to move to a place where I could get that knowledge, I think, Jeroen Leenarts: because what you what you often hear is that people they do their studies, or in some way they get acquainted with software development, and then pretty much the first place that offers them a, an internship, they tend to stick around a few years there. But that's not something you did, right. Daniel Devesa: No, also, because I always wanted to live in, in different places. So for me, it was pretty interesting to move them to a bigger city like Barcelona, with so many opportunities as well. And that's why they moved, I ended up moving to London as well, a few years later. Jeroen Leenarts: So you worked at banana tea, and that was a social network. I think at some point. Everybody was building social networks, or at least trying to so then you went to music cubed. So what, what kind of product was that? Daniel Devesa: So yeah, as you said, I think we were developing social network in the boom era of social networks. And at some point, or CEO told us that we had just a couple months left, of course. So we were free to start looking for other opportunities if we wanted to. And at that point, I got the opportunity to, to move to London. And yeah, I started working on music. Yep. And what the company did is was quite interesting, man, back in the day, it was a white label music service app that you could rebrand quickly to, for bands or companies to have their own music music up. But during those two years, I mostly worked on MTV tracks. So it was basically we rounded that up for the MTV. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay. So what what were the biggest challenges in in a product like that, first of all, probably because it was white label that demand that specific skills, but also a music app. Was it like playback or what was what were the challenges of this product? Daniel Devesa: Just with the interesting business model of this company was that back in the day, Spotify was already a big company. Probably Europe, everyone had a music service up was what if I already, but the model was a bit differently was targeting young people, and it was much cheaper. So if I remember correctly, he was around four pounds a month or something like that. And the way that used to offer that price was because basically, you'd have 100 trucks every time in your app, and they were offline. And during the night, the app would date the content. So when you when you woke up next next day, some of the tracks were still there, and some of them are different. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay, so a lot of syncing and not at request requesting of songs was happening Daniel Devesa: that early on. Yeah, where, as you know, like everything that you try to do in the background in the US, especially back then, was a big challenge as well. Jeroen Leenarts: And then at some point, you moved from music cubes to BBC, what year was that? You made that switch? Daniel Devesa: Let me think I think it was around 2016. So around four years ago, I think Yeah. Yeah. But I had worked for a couple years. Music gift. It, I had already some experience on startup so that we had a big dashboard in the middle of the office with all the numbers, right. And I could see that thing into were not going really well. And, and it wasn't looking like it was going to change anytime soon. So being in one of those moments that you were in a company that you see that is going to have to close or running out of money is quite difficult. So I didn't wanted to being in the position anymore. And at that same time, I was thinking, I want to move to a bigger company as well. So basically, I was super lucky to be in London in a moment where there were a ton of opportunities. So I quit my job. And then I decided to spend all my time in, in looking for companies I wanted to work for and on focusing on the interview process. So interview for a ton of companies, including Skyscanner. I went with him bro. And I got rejected. I interviewed for Spotify as well. I went to Stockholm, and I got rejected as well. And in the end, I got added to the booth in IWC. Yeah, it was it was great for the music as well. Jeroen Leenarts: So that's for people that don't know, BBC is the British Broadcasting Company. So that's basically the National Broadcasting Service in Great Britain. Probably an app with like tons of users. What can you tell about that product? BBC News Plus app Daniel Devesa: was two different apps. So first, we're enjoying the BBC, I joined BBC News. It was amazing. Because we also worked in in, in an office at the BBC housing in four circles and in the city in the center of the of London. And these were the newsroom is I was told that it was the BS newsroom in, in Europe. So it's a pretty impressive office building. And yeah, we developed BBC News for the public service in UK, which is at fame because it's a public service. So you can have ads. But we also develop the global app that you could have ads and will develop apps for different services as well in different languages, Jeroen Leenarts: because the BBC makes it very clear distinction between what a broadcast nationally and what a broadcast worldwide because every time I listen or hear the BBC, they all it always starts with BBC World services. And that's their more advertising supported branch of work. Daniel Devesa: You can the public service. And then there's BBC studios, I think it's called now, which is the commercial brand and brand for the BBC in the world. And then you see what services is different news services or around the world in different languages. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay, so you've worked at BBC News app and the BBC Plus app. So news I can imagine because every country has multiple news apps available. So that's probably a high loads, a lot of peak load that you need to be able to deal with and also being able to actually throttle the end users if very big events happen in the world. But the BBC Plus app What is this about? Daniel Devesa: That was a very interesting project I was involved in. So there was a point where the BBC wanted to develop a new app. And the IDEA data was to be able to give you personalized content based on your on your tastes and your watching habits. Something like that. So basically, the BBC, I think, is facing a lot of competence from Netflix and Amazon that they really know what you want to see. And they didn't know you're right. So the BBC is trying to find their way to fight against that. And that was one thing. And the other thing is the music has many different types of content, right? So you have news, you have sport, you have content or children, you have documentaries. So they started to want to have a better way of connecting the different types of content from the different parts of the music, right? So maybe you were reading an article, and then there was a documentary that is was related to that article, they wanted to be able to point you to that documentary if it made sense. So we started working on this BBC Plus app that they did was to tackle that problem. And to work with a new team of data scientists. I worked in the dark for a year. And basically, I was lucky to be the one of doing the file, new project. I heard even a video recording myself doing that, because I don't think a lot of people have the opportunity to do something like that in a in a big company. And and I was the thing, did we release the app in just a few months. You Jeroen Leenarts: already mentioned Skyscanner and Spotify. But you initially got rejected both of them, right? Both of them. So what happened there? Daniel Devesa: So yeah, first I, when I left the BBC, there was one of those first times in my career that I really didn't know what they wanted to do next. So I get the opportunity to do some consulting. And I started doing some consulting for The Times newspaper. But after three months, I thought that consulting was not for me, really. And the greeter from Skyscanner approached me. And, yeah, I really liked the idea of working for Skyscanner. And that's why I did the interview a few years back. I love to travel. I use the product all the time. So I did the interview on the main offer. And I started working for Skyscanner. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, did your experience at the BBC. You would then all of a sudden, you were a match for that team? Daniel Devesa: Yeah, I think my experience for the BBC have really helped me to get both jobs first Skyscanner and then on Spotify, because basically, the the, the reason of the reverse direction for both companies back then was a bit around my lack of experience in in bigger in bigger teams. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay. And can you give a small description of what these guys can actually does? Because I think most people know what it does. But it might be a little bit of an unknown for some people. Daniel Devesa: Yeah, it doesn't really help you plan your trips. You can I think the most well known part of Skyscanner is that you can compare flights. So you can say you want to travel from A to B during those dates. And you can see which dates are cheaper. And then once you choose those dates, you can actually compare it between different companies and times and have all sorts of filters to add. And you can also book hotels, and I hired a guy as well, and things like that. I wasn't there for around seven months, we think I regret a bit because it was I was working in such an amazing team. And, you know, seven months is not enough to get to know, well like a team and the company, I think. But during that time, again, I got approached by recruiters from Spotify. And they told me they were looking for an iOS engineering here in London, which is quite rare. Because the biggest Spotify offices are in Stockholm, and in New York as well. And then the other interesting thing was that it was to work for a greenfield project. I really liked the experience at BBC plus working on an infill project for for a big company. And it was a secret project. So I couldn't, they couldn't tell me much more about it. So at the beginning, I struggled to see to decide if I should do the interview or not. But then I thought I would do it. I would probably get rejected. And if not, then I would get to decide really if I wanted to stay at Skyscanner or move to to Spotify Jeroen Leenarts: is the project you're working on within Spotify still a secret at the moment or is already launched. Daniel Devesa: Actually it was launched the week I joined and it's Spotify kids. So a lot a lot of people complain that when they get there the rap campaign at the end of the year the polluted by good songs, right because you use your account to duplicate songs as well. So yeah, we started with being Spotify kids for that is a different app and you can actually create different accounts for for different kids. So at the moment, you need to have a Spotify family plan. And the idea is, is a different app? Because I guess it's a safer environment, so they don't get to switch to your account or, or, you know, it's, it's a lot more much more lightweight. And it's really an experience that is really tailored for for kids. So. Jeroen Leenarts: So um, let's see. So that's, that's already quite a number of big brands that you actually work for. And you always work professionally as an iOS developer, correct? Daniel Devesa: Not always most of my career. But when I was at banality, yeah, I was the sole mobile engineer. So I did both the iPhone and the Android apps, they're Jeroen Leenarts: still mobile, but not no back end stuff. No, Daniel Devesa: not yet. Not yet. Jeroen Leenarts: So was there any common thread across all the jobs that you did all the products that you've worked on, that something that you've been able to add to all of these products? Daniel Devesa: I know, just the years, I said, more or less the conduct of the products I worked for, were usually products I liked, and I believed in them. And I was probably probably already a user of those products as well. So one thing I really like is to get in very involved in in the in the product. And, and I think that's why I found really quickly that consulting was not for me, because you have this good bar, right that you get to try different projects from and should be the time. But you don't get to really get in both in the in the, in the project as a software engineer. And also I'd like to do get my ideas around the product as well itself, and proportion, new features and things like that. And that one thing on when I worked for the BBC, because it was a political organization, they, they really cared about making the their services available to everyone. And one thing they they really cared a lot about is of the apps being accessible. So I learned the whole bunch of accessibility in the BBC. And since since then, I try to both make the work more accessible. And also try to embed the accessibility the culture, in the in the product and in the companies I've worked on. Jeroen Leenarts: So And what made you decide to actually write a book on this topic, then the accessibility of iOS apps? Daniel Devesa: Yeah, that's an interesting story. So when I was at the BBC, again, I was learning a lot about accessibility, and also about internationalization and localization of apps because of these apps in different languages. And I really liked attending to conferences back then. Still, still I do, but now it's a bit more difficult to do it. And one of this is a public organization again, so the budget is quite tight for for certain things. And I thought I would have a better chance of attending the conferences if I was one of the speakers. Because then there was also notable, not just the value of me attending to the conference, but also, I guess, it was interesting for the BBC as well, to have a speaker in certain conferences and things like that. So I am, I really struggle, a struggle in public speaking, but I decided that I would give it a go. So I started writing a proposal for for a talk about accessibility, and internal internationalization. It was called building apps for everyone. And then I started submitting the proposal to a few conferences. And then one day, I got an email from one of the organizers from DEF CON. And that was my first book in the conference. And then I think it was on the following year. I wanted to go to W. W DC, and I didn't get a ticket. What I think I did, but Ebola keeps I kept saying that it didn't because my bank called me saying a company called Apple just trying to charge you 1300 pounds, is that correct? And yes, please let them do Jeroen Leenarts: it. Let them take no money. Daniel Devesa: But basically they didn't try it again. So it was I was I had been in the WWE And I found interesting what was going on next door, which was the outcome as well. So I thought, instead, I would apply to speak at the outcome. And I think that got accepted. And I think it was in big part because I got to do that in at DEF CON before. And at the end of the talk. And publisher approached me saying that he liked the talk. And they were looking for quite a long time for someone to write a book about accessibility, if I was interested. So I never thought I was going to write a book in my life. I even even then I didn't thought I was going to be able to do. Yeah, I said, I said, Yes, I wrote a proposal and got accepted. So I started reading the book. Jeroen Leenarts: So basically, what you're saying is that, even though you had a lot of apprehension about the idea, just going out and doing talks at a conference was actually something that opened up new opportunities for you. Daniel Devesa: Next week, unexpected ways. Jeroen Leenarts: So but doing a first conference talk, and having no public speaking experience at all. Probably, you did some stuff before that, I guess. So maybe local meetups or that you present that smaller events? Or meetings before that? Or how did you build up your own ability and confidence to actually be able to send in the CFP? Daniel Devesa: So? Yeah, I think the only thing I did before was lightning talking in a meetup. So I really want Yeah, I mean, the festival, the first time you do public speaking, is is is usually quite, quite bad. So I really wanted to do better. And I thought doing a bigger conference would force me as well, to try to practice on doing and improve. I did a small course on the BBC as well. That really helped me. Because I mean, there are just a few tricks that are super useful. So one thing that I'm probably doing right now is when you're Nevers, you start speaking really fast. Jeroen Leenarts: And then and then you have time left at the end of your time slot. There you go. Like, I wouldn't still got like 10 minutes, what do I do? Daniel Devesa: Exactly. So there was just a small thing, right. But I remember the teacher being at the end of the room, make, like, we've had a small talk for five minutes. And she had like a white card. And every time I was speeding up, she would raise the white card. So I had to slow down. And then I don't know, it was tiny exercise. But that made me realize that I had to find a way of pacing myself a bit more. And the other one, I don't know further, like tips and tricks around techniques on Jeroen Leenarts: so and so you mentioned, you did some initial presentations, probably internally to your colleagues. And then you went on to some local meetups, maybe a coca hats or something similar like that, because and then, and then you just okay, that's sending them. Let's send in the proposal and see what happens. And then you got to accept it. And then what happens? Daniel Devesa: Your particular words that I started sending the proposal to defend conferences I found interesting. It's normal at the beginning, I got rejected by most of them because I don't have previous experience or years they may find a bit risky is to for someone that is new to tap them. And I actually think my first talk at the DEF CON, if I remember correctly, was we heard from someone that was supposed to speak at the conference dropped off in the in the last minute. So I guess I was one of the first candidates in the in the waiting list. And they contacted me. And yeah, I mean, I always say that, for me was kind of a shock therapy, right? Something like that. There was like, No, there's no way back. I remember the day before the talk, I just wanted for someone to call me and say, by the way, it's being canceled or something like that. I was I was super scared of it. But yeah, I practiced a lot. One thing I did as well. I always thought it was all about the content and preparing the slides. And one thing I learned in the course as well is that's super important, but it's more important to have enough time to practice and to go through your slides a lot of times, and one thing that was interesting is my first talk he was in a cinema. So basically, your slides get projected in the big screen. And the good thing is you can see the audience. So I think I was more, you know, this more relaxed than then than I thought they would be, because I couldn't see anyone. So it was kind of practicing for myself again. Jeroen Leenarts: So you started doing conference presentations, first one at the DEF CON, and then you went to outcomes. And then a few more conference that you went to? What is your biggest tip or recommendation to anyone who's listening to this? And who's thinking, well, maybe I should do a conference talk? Maybe I should have a stab at that. Daniel Devesa: I know, it's tricky, because to me, it was hard enough to convince myself. So Jeroen Leenarts: why did you why did you do this? Daniel Devesa: Yeah, just because it was something I thought I would really bad. I wanted to prove myself. And I wanted to see, I mean, in the end, you realize that is all about all about practice. And, of course, there's people who may find things easier than others. But practice, that's perfect. Right? I think I think practice is everything. But also one of the reasons I did is because as I said, I love to go into conferences, and I love to see how people could speak about something they have been they had been working on that year, and and how you could learn about about a bunch of topics in just one day, right? And then I don't know, I was fascinated by people that could do that. So I wanted to give it a go. The I guess the tip I would give is an was something that I it was difficult for me to realize is we all have something interesting to talk about. So I think a lot of us 10th thing, you know, like, what are you going to talk about? You're just one software engineer doing whatever. But in every single one of our jobs, we do something that others don't do, or at least something that others may find interesting. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, I think what you're going at is also something that a lot of bloggers actually tell me, for instance, I don't think it's in my interview with Anton formulae. But when I talked to him at another occasion, he did mention to me that there's always something interesting, anyone can share when it comes to iOS development, because, of course, there's always people that know more about a specific topic. But there are always people that know less about the topic that you're writing about. So it doesn't matter what you talk about, it doesn't matter what you write about. As long as your delivery is somewhat in order. The content, there's always somebody that's that is that the content is of interest to so don't don't, don't ever think that what you want to talk about is not interesting, because you have to learn it as well. Yeah, correct. I think that's I think that's a good summary of what what you were going at, is that correct? Daniel Devesa: Yeah, that's correct. And I actually think, or at least part of it is in your interview with Antoine and I think he mentioned that. He he used to read an S hipster, I think. And of course, that's an amazing blow, right. And they have such they go searching in, in depth to every nice single topic that they thought and, and you may look at that and thinking, I'm never going to be able to write something like that. But you have to start otherwise. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay. You're also already mentioned a book you wrote. So how was that experience for you? Is it something you want to do ever again, or Daniel Devesa: it? I don't know? Us? It was very difficult to me. When I wrote it, I think the last thing I really wrote that was the long was my master thesis. And it was many, many years ago. And also the book was in English and is not my first first language, although there was another handicap to it, as well. It's a small book. So it's like 120 something pages. But it was a lot of work, a lot of work. And it took me I think a bit more than a year. Also, I know that I would do things very differently now but I'm not very disciplined, I think at this kind of thing. And so, you know, maybe I would spend a whole weekend writing the book and then we'll do an amazing progress. And then during the following weekend, I will need to do something else to rest and then suddenly it will be super busy at work and next time you start writing it's been a few weeks So it's kind of difficult to get back into the writing mode and stuff. Jeroen Leenarts: So was it most difficult to actually get a rhythm going? Or just finding the time at all? Even? Daniel Devesa: Yeah, as well. So yeah, the one. So a lot of things happen during the time I was writing the book, we released the use of plotter for example. And, and the donor has died. So there are a few weeks where you're super busy trying to, to get the app ready to release, then I sweet job jobs twice, not three times, actually. So every time you started in a new company is in it all of your time? I think. So it was it was quite difficult as well. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah. Let's see. I'm thinking a little bit processing. That's the magic of can always cut and edit later. So when writing the book, the biggest challenge, it seems, was producing the actual contents. But once you were writing, was it hard? Or was it not that hard at all to produce the content? Daniel Devesa: It depends. So I think the good thing is it was a very specific topic. So we were about accessibility. And I was doing a lot of it. So the good thing is, I knew a bunch of things I could I could write about. One thing that really helped me was to have like to write a proposal for the for the publisher, so basically describing the chapters doing a small introduction, introduction of each one of the chapters, try to do a draft of the sub sections that each one of the chapters would have. But I what what I found difficult is to find actually, examples that that people could relate to. I think it's the same with blogging, right? So sometimes, you know, what you want to write about, sometimes you know how to explain it. But sometimes the most difficult thing is to actually find the right example, something that people think okay, that's, that's something that I could be doing tomorrow at work. Jeroen Leenarts: Is there anything else that we should talk about, or something that you wanted to mention, or Daniel Devesa: what I realized, when speaking with people and writing the book is, a lot of times when, when developers don't do their apps accessible is mostly because of their not because they're not aware of it? And second, if they are aware of it, they think it's more much more difficult than that. It really is. So yeah, just just try it out. Because you'll find that it's much easier than you think. And and it's just part of the for for work, I Jeroen Leenarts: think, because diversity is more than just where you live, what ethnicity? What ethnicity. So ethnicity, what, can you help me with their ethnicity? Yeah, what ethnicity you have. So that's, that's what I'm Greg for me. So it's, but it's also how accessible is your product to people who either have a temporary or a permanent disability. And there's so much you can actually do on the iOS platform to really help people out there. First of all, use your product. And second of all, it's it's one of those things that it's in the category, it's the right thing to do really. And and it's it's just something that should be fundamental to any app that's being developed, if you asked me. So with that, I think I think we have a nice summary of food. Daniel defesa Derrickson stats is, and I really want to thank you for your time. Daniel Devesa: Thank you so much for inviting me. It's been really fun. I'm really enjoying your podcast, and it's been great to be part of it. Jeroen Leenarts: No problem. Thank you. Daniel Devesa: Thank you