Twitter Space: Attending a conf as attendee or speaker

Jeroen Leenarts: Before we begin, first of all, welcome everybody. And I had a discussion on this with with Stefan beforehand. We're not we should do this. But we decided to do it anyway. Because we cannot let actions in the world leave was terrified and passive only, we hope pray for the affected people in the Ukraine and wish for this to be resolved as quickly as possible. Because no one in the world should live through the experience of hardship, violence, bloodshed, loss of life and prolonged uncertainty that a war brings, nobody should be the victim of a war. Just wanted to put that out there. That many things that people can do in any way to do something, look in your local area, there's bound to be people from the Ukraine that have some ideas, some things you can do. Also, on the other end of the spectrum, there's a lot of people in Russia that can isolate because of the actions of dictator, they will have like a hard time there as well, just to say, being in a war, so worst thing that you can have, but all around, I only see people losing through this whole thing happening in the world. Today, we're going to talk about conferences, and the ways that Martin and I look at conference, because conferences a number of things to us. First of all, most people, of course, they attend the conference, they go to a conference, especially the in person ones. It's been a couple of years since we were able to and hopefully this year will be go to many conferences again. So that's the attending part. But also a good way to get to a conference is to submit costs paper, and try to become a speaker at a conference. And that's a whole different experience altogether. Because it's quite different being like on a stage or looking at somebody on the stage. So we just wanted to dive into that a little bit. And yeah, just see where we end up. We have a list of topics that we wanted to talk about. And I'd say, what are some of the things that you want to start with Marty? Well, Martin Mitrevski: first, let's see. We've already briefly mentioned some events that we are looking forward to. We can then start with the biggest one, maybe the W W DC conference, and what can we do to prepare for for it? And so first, I will I will start. So WWDC, I guess, is the the conference for Ireland. And, of course, it's not really easy to get there in person. But fortunately, there are a lot of online videos that APR provides. And me personally, I haven't been to double double this person, but I really enjoy the videos and learn a lot from them each year. And how do we prepare for WWDC? Well, yeah, just be prepared to be amazed. So just turn on your Apple Developer App or Safari and enjoy the videos. So take some notes. Try out. While they're praised that the new technologies download Xcode bid and try some things. And here, I think it's important not to feel pressured to watch everything. Because there are a lot of videos, a lot of content from a lot of different areas aspects of iOS development. I would say there first some some videos that need to be watched. And then based on your preferences, you can pick some things that interest you and also will suggest picking up some that are completely unrelated to what you do because it's great for expanding things. So what about you, you know, Jeroen Leenarts: I was fortunate enough to be able to go to to WWDC s over the years. There was quite a while ago actually so 2011 And I think it was 2014 or 15. I don't know exactly I have to look up the the jerky that they give you each year. So of course it's still up in the air whether or not there will be an in person WWDC this year. But if it was so happen, I do know there's a number of things that you can do to really prepare yourself as an attendee if you go in person. First. Before we go into that I want to touch upon The topic that why is it hard to get to the WWDC? Now, first of all, it's it's a lottery, you have to enter yourself to get a ticket to if you get the opportunity to buy a ticket, then on top of that, you're going to the Bay Area San Francisco. And yeah, it's you could say it is prohibitively expensive to go to WWDC because not only are paying for a ticket, you also have to pay for a hotel, and you also have to pay for airfare, and then your stay there, that will cost you some money as well, in the sense of you need food, right. And probably you also want to do a couple of things and be active there while you're attending the conference. So just to give you a ballpark, when I was going to WWDC just a one hotel night that cost you like $250. And the flight from Europe to the Bay Area that was also like in range of $2,000. So all in all, my then employer was fronting all the costs for that. So I was very lucky in that sense. But you are looking at a ticket, everything impact in one package of like six to 7000 euros to even be able to go to the WWDC if you're not living in the United States, and then the difference between being in the United States or in Europe is mostly in the airfare. So you can already do the calculation how much of a difference that would make. It's it's not the most expensive part of the entire experience getting there with an airplane. So, but if you are lucky enough to be there, there's a number of things that I think you should do. And that's first of all, the weird thing with WWDC is, things are not happening. At the WWDC presentations, things are happening at the WWDC labs, if you can get some lab time with an apple engineer, whether or not it's online or offline, it's time spent, that you that you will that will pay itself back, like tenfold. So if you if you do it properly. So it's really important that if you go to WW see labs that you have your question already that you have supporting example code that you can show to the Apple engineer, so that you have like, so that you can get straight to the points of the topic that you want input on. And there are a lot of things happening around the offense, of course around just conference. And in that way. WWE is very different compared to other conferences, because the most beneficial thing that I got from WWDC is actually the networking that you do around the conference, just meeting people getting to get an idea of what people are working on. Actually getting concrete job offers, sometimes even just, that's that's where the benefit is. And also with WWDC, if you're not able to go to the conference itself, and they do an in person event again this year, there are alternative conferences happening in the same week as the WWE and just go to those you I think pretty much get like 80 to 90% of the benefits of go to WWDC yourself. So yeah, and what Martin already mentioned, you should not try to watch everything in the videos afterwards, because there's just so much stuff becoming available. And you will notice that there's a lot of people online who are going through the content, who will point you with their blog articles and other outlets. So what videos are very much worthwhile to watch and which phone are interesting to watch if that technology, that aspect of the iOS or Mac platform as a specific benefit to what you're working on. So don't try to watch everything. And most of all, just hang back and just let it happen because it's it's a roller coaster ride that will that will stay with you for quite a time afterwards, because I still have fond memories of the two WWDC that I went through. And I still have people who are in my network who I consider somewhere in between acquaintances and friends. But I met them through just a conference, which is kind of wild actually. So um, yeah. So that's WWDC. Right, Martin? Yep, yep. So there's, there's a lot more there but just look aligned so that people who write entire blog articles on how to prepare and hopefully we can go back in person again this year because it changes to five of the entire WWDC conference. And I know that with the experience that we had over the past two years, that Apple will take the lessons they learned from the past two years forward into the future in anything that they will do with WWDC, be it in person or only online. But I think getting some of the WWDC experience, if they do it in person will be very, very much possible due to the whole Corona thing that happened in the past two years. So um, so but then there's also other conferences which is quite different and In my mind, there's basically three kinds of conferences that you that you can go to, besides like these big these big, WC type events, because yeah, we also have Google IO. And other vendors have their brand specific conference as well, which are huge happenings with 10s of 1000s. People in, in, in attendance, sometimes. But you also have three different types of conference. And just taking it back to the iOS ecosystem, I think the most fun conference to go to is really the, the grassroots type of conference. So I'm really looking at, for instance, what, what, what Adam did last year with Swift leads, because that's like a conference, he he started because he was excited about iOS technology. And he wanted to get a couple people together. And it was like maybe 100 people that that were there that were in attendance. But just having this small group available, it limits the number of people that you can interact with. But because there's a limited number of people, the amount of interaction that you will be getting is much, much higher, and probably much more beneficial. Next to the grassroots type conference, you also have like, these conferences that are organized by companies that focus their entire business model around creating conferences, for instance, I would be thinking about, for instance, the dot series of conferences. So that's the dot swift conference in Paris, still very much. It's feels like a grassroots conference. But it is run by a professional group of people who do multiple conferences each year. And they basically make a living out of organizing conferences. And the fun of those conferences is this usually they have a bit more budget available especially can get, like these more high profile speakers into the venue. And they have like, these lineups, that's like, if like three, four, sometimes five people that you would say like, Okay, if I can get one of these at a conference, then it's already worthwhile to go to that conference. So you're thinking about people like Daniel Steinberg, or Paul Hudson and other bigger names in iOS ecosystem. For instance, I always love going to talks by Anastasia photofile, when she was still doing iOS development, because it was so much in depth with with security on iOS. And that's just probably there. Some people in your in your Twitter lists that you would say like if this, these people give a talk at a conference, I would very much like to see those people in person. But flying people across, flying in people across the world it is it is expensive to do that. And then there's another type of conference. So that's like things like the next web that's like more a technology agnostic conference, really big 10s of 1000s of people. But it's not something that is organized by a big tech company. They're very much focused on the business and the networking aspect of conferences. And I think I'd actually four types of conference that I mentioned now. But beyond the big tech conference, those are the three types of conferences that I usually see when, when they are available. And they're all three have their own details and some different aspects to you being an attendee there. So, Martin, you've been to a couple of conferences, right? Yeah, exactly. So yeah, go what are some of the typical stuff that you tend to bring to a conference? If you're only an attendee? Martin Mitrevski: Well, you're only an attendee thing, the first thing that that you need to pick up, of course, is the passport, clothes and all that you need for traveling, then I would encourage you to take your laptop because it's, I think it's not worthwhile writing notes while people are talking. But maybe after, after the book, or after all the talks, you can just write down the things that people are mentioning the most important things that you've learned throughout the conference. Then, of course, when you prepare, you need to take care of the accommodation. Because if you're an attendee usually you will have to take care about all these things by yourself and not the conference doesn't take care of accommodation and travel stuff. And also, in regards of the traveling, plane tickets and all that and here. Now it's a bit more complicated because we we have a lot of COVID rules, so you need to check things whether your country's secure to be traveling from a To the other country, and anything else that that might be concerning in terms of traveling, then usually the conferences are couple of days. So from this one to three or four days, and here I think is great if you if you take an extra day or so to get to know the city where the conference is happening, and to take a break out of all this talk so different differently, I think those are the most important things that are needed if you are attending as a as an attendee, not as a speaker, and of course, to bring an open mind because there are people from different nationalities, different countries and different understandings of everything. So even in terms of software development, different ideas and different approaches. So in general, yeah, those are the most important things to prepare it with from from me as an attendee, how about you? Jeroen Leenarts: Well, pretty much the same list. And one of the things I actually forgot once was to check the local climate and the weather forecast of the location that you're traveling to, because I actually had the fortunate experience of going to San Francisco. And it was a different conference, but it was like, springtime winter, I think it was like, February, March, that timeframe that I was going there. And I was completely blissful. Yes, I'm going to San Francisco. And last time I was there, it was very nice weather and everything was fine, right? Well, I wish I brought a sweater and maybe a jacket even because when every time was outside, I was cold. So I had to buy some clothes when I was there. Because the conference, I was then going to didn't supply these nice jackets, the way that the apple conferences usually do. So do check the weather and the climate were attracted to and also be aware of any geopolitical opinions that are very different depending on where you're traveling to. Because just the fact that you're, for instance, traveling in from Europe, or India or China, or somewhere in Africa, people will already have some sort of bias on you, based on the region that you're coming from. So be aware of that, and just make sure that that you're prepared for for 40 odd questions sometimes on on your origins and some strange opinions on how life could actually be on where you are living because I had experienced that somebody actually thought that I was living in some sort of a mansion, and that I had like, crazy amounts of, of income and stuff, just because of the fact that I was traveling in from Europe, and it was in the I was in the South American Conference that so that was that was quite different and quite wild, actually. So be prepared for that, and only extending your stay for for some time off. Yeah, I really like doing that. Because first of all, it gets you some time to, to look around and see what's what's happening in the in the in the city that you're going to, but also it allows you to climatized a little bit to the, to the to the weather to the area, and just maybe not be as as tired from the from the whole trip or going there. Because depending on where you're going, you're you're going across time zones sometimes, and just getting some sort of asleep rhythm going again, can be quite challenging. So um, but then there's also going to conference and then one of the benefits there is like the networking, right, so meeting people. So that's the time between the sessions, a sponsor area that you can go into, sometimes you can either by by buying a ticket or by some sort of a lottery, you can be in attendance to some something called a speaker dinner. That's usually also conference parties going on. So one of the one of the things that's very nice about go to conferences, if there's additional activities around the conference, that is not directly the talks and the time between the sessions, do consider going there because that is something that gives you some more time and some more opportunities to interact with people that are in attendance to the conference. But then, beyond being an attendee, you can also be a speaker at a conference, right? That's something you've done before as well, Martin, if I'm correct, yeah, Martin Mitrevski: yes. So being a speaker provides a completely different experience in attending a conference so up Apart from, you know, the listening part where you can learn a lot of things from from the industry experts, you can also share things that you have learned over your career. And that's pretty great. And, yeah, I had some opportunities to speak at conferences. And maybe here, we can share some thoughts about how we can prepare ourselves for a conference talk and hear everything starts with picking a topic that you want to present. And here, I would suggest that you pick a subject that you're comfortable talking about. So whether that's something that you've done in the past, or you hear it regularly working in your current job, or you spent some time in your spare time learning about this technology, or this pet project, or anything that you want to talk about. So I will pick something that I'm comfortable talking about that. And then is the call for papers, opening where you, you have to present your idea in the best way possible. So you can convince the organizers that you're a great fit for presenting at their conference. And afterwards, you have to prepare the slides. And here, I think, the less you have on the slides, the less content you have on the slides is better because those I think are mostly for reminding you where you are, what you want to share, and also providing some nice graphics and illustrations on what you're trying to say. So I would go with beautiful, but more minimalistic slides. So similarly to what April does in their conferences, and also many great speakers from from our community to in terms of slides. And here. Also, one important thing, especially if you're starting out as a speaker, I think it's very important to do a lot of practice. And especially if you're limited for a certain timeframe. Because sometimes we want to say too much, and then we might run out of time. And we either take the break from from the participants or we you know, do some things like moving the talks for a bit because we're late. So that's why I think it's very important to practice a lot, especially starting with speaking at conferences, and afterwards, as you gain some more confidence you you, you will need less time to prepare for conferences. But in any case, preparation and practice is very important, because you owe that to your listeners and to the conference organizers to provide, you know, the best experience for them because they have paid to watch your talk. And also the most important thing is also don't fuss too much about it, of course. So if you did your proper preparation, just go out there and share your experiences. So how about you hearing you also? A few countries? Yeah, Jeroen Leenarts: a couple. But But what I would find interesting to do as a sort of a thought experiment right now would be for example, you're you're somewhere in the world, and you want to, I don't know, let's let's let's set some let's set a goal somewhere. So, for instance, I'm somewhere in the world at a continent. And my goal is to be able to give a presentation on whatever topic in a different continent. So that's your end goal. How can you get started on that ankle? So I think it's a number of stages that you that you can go through to get yourself ready to get the opportunity really because you mentioned already a call for paper and that's for most people pretty much the biggest obstacle in getting to a conference because you have to get selected by someone right? So you have to try and stand out in some specific way that piques the interest of the conference organizers or the coffee paper review committee. So but let's start with goal of, for instance, I'm in, I'm in Europe, and I want to get to a conference in United States or maybe in India, and or you are somebody who lives in India and you want to do a conference in Europe, or whatever, you're in South America, you want to do conference in Europe, or you're in Africa, you want to do a conference in South America, or you're in the United States, and you wouldn't mind visiting Europe, like you're one of those people, you want to do a conference, you have to go, you have to go to college, you need to be going on an airplane cross continents. So what can you do, I think the first thing that you really start doing is to really start giving presentations, right. And giving presentations, there's plenty of opportunities there. Because if you're working remotely or in person, you're already have the opportunity to present to your colleagues. Because quite often you work on a specific feature, or you develop some specific aspect of a product and your peers, they need to know what you worked on. Perfect opportunity to just create some slides and start presenting. And beforehand, get one of your colleagues who you know, and trust and say, Hey, I'm doing this to also prepare myself a little bit to speaking opportunities. So once I've done give me some refuel, give me some feedback on the style of presentation and how I did. And probably you get a lot of feedback, and you'll make a lot of mistakes that you can improve significantly, just then in there. Something else that you can also do is go to local meetups and offer yourself to be a speaker doesn't matter that you're not experienced, because what I've noticed with a lot of these meetup communities is that they are very welcoming to anybody during the presentation. And if you're, if you're totally unfamiliar with public speaking, just be upfront about it. And probably you will get the support that you will need feedback, suggestions, tips and things, ways that you can improve. And that's a perfect way to get some more exposure on yourself. And that's what I mean with that. It's different if you're presenting to people that you know, by colleagues, or if you're presenting to people that you don't really know, for instance, at the meetup because there's a difference. And you will feel that the first time that you start presenting with a with a somewhat larger audience. So I'm talking about like 10 or 20 people. Once you have done that, while like once or twice, start looking for a meetup, and maybe you're lucky, the meetup that you go to already does video recordings of people doing presentations, start looking for a meetup that does, recordings of maybe even live streams of the presentations that are given that are meetups and try and get in one of those spots. Because not I then getting yourself familiar with an even larger audience, because people online but also you're getting more familiar with being wired up with a microphone and being in front of something that resembles camera, because that, again, is different. And it's it's a whole new aspect to giving the presentation. And of course, you just keep going keep doing that and just enjoy yourself really, because that's the most important part. But what you do, by doing that is that you actually end up with you give a presentation. And that has video evidence of you doing that, right? So that once you start submitting to conferences, in your, in your country, or in adjacent countries, you can actually link to hate this, I want to do a presentation. This is my golf paper, this topic I want to talk about and here's proof of the way that I do presentations so people can actually see, okay, this is an interest interesting topic. And this person, if we get him on stage, we have video evidence of him or her not not messing up too much, right? Because that's also a risk with conferences. If you get a speaker that you don't know, how are they going to do on stage, right, because that's the that's the biggest challenge that you have as conference organizer, well, and then at a local or adjacent country conference, then you have like the opportunity to also maybe have to do some travel. Maybe you can go there by car or train or whatever. But it is a bit more involved compared to doing your presentation at a local meetup community, in the city that you live. But again, you're at a larger conference again, and people can actually have an experience of you doing a presentation. And if once you've reached that milestone, then I think you can really start looking outside of the geographic area that you're living so you could start entering calls for paper in different countries, different continents, and then just it's a matter of seeing what happens and keep on doing the local presentations, the local meetups, the local conferences and stuff. Because I know as a conference organizer myself, what I really like is that I like if people a chance, but it is really nice that you can get some confirmation on that they actually have some stage presence so that they because I had once there was a speaker on stage, just I felt very sorry for this person, but he got on stage and he completely sort of like shut down he was I know sort of stage fright was happening and He was just not ready for the stage that he was on the number of people that were in attendance, and probably would have done much better in a smaller room with less people. But having 100 people in front of him was a bit too much at that point in time for this person. So any thoughts on that? Martin? Because you did some corporate presentations as well, I think you also started small and build your way up from that, right? Martin Mitrevski: Yes, those are really great tips that you share. I've actually started like that. So first, I started giving presentation at my previous company started small, like first, even my teammates only, and then, you know, all hands meetings, sometimes I will share some fun bits about some projects that we did, and so on. And afterwards, I had presentations, a few local meetups where you can share some things with fellow developers. And afterwards, I started, you know, thinking about doing a presentation at the International Conference. And first, all these previous steps that I did. So speaking at meetups and at company events, helped me gain confidence and improve my presentation skills, because I was very bit at the beginning. So even the look at the audience when when I was talking, and things like that. And I also didn't feel comfortable. But after doing all these smaller events, I started to gain some some confidence. And what really also helped me personally was my book. So when you have some online presence and have, you know, written proof that you're some, you have some knowledge on the on the topic that you want to talk about, that also helps a lot. And the first, my first conference was in Poland, in which it's sitting in Poland, and it was mobilization, that was the name of the conference. So not the biggest one in the world. But it was an international conference. And it really helped me also gain confidence. So there were around 50, people wanted one. And, of course, I was scared, but I prepared a lot. And afterwards, the conference was recorded. And as you also mentioned, when you have recordings of you speaking in front of people, that helps really a lot. When you apply for future conferences, and from then on, it was a lot easier. So I started speaking at bigger conferences, I think the largest one hit like 300 people or maybe more in London. So over time, you you gain this confidence. But that was really great tip that you gave, it's really important to start small and build your way up from from there. And with online conferences, it's a bit easier, it's actually a different kind of challenge. So you don't have the pressure of speaking in front of the people that that you look at. But also you don't have any interaction. So I guess it's easier, but also you don't gain much out of debt. So I think nothing is better than speaking in front of the people. But yeah, for this period, with the COVID situation. Also online conferences are a great way to boost your confidence to speak in front of people, although virtually. And yeah, that was my experience. So far, speaking at conferences. Jeroen Leenarts: Cool. That sounds really good, because you mentioned that you started small and then started progressing from there. But one thing that I want to go into is also the deciding what you want to talk about, right because at some point, you're going to be either suggesting that you present about a topic or you are actually writing calls for paper to conferences. What do you do there? I think if you are starting as a like presenting at meetups, it's just fun to to share some technical detail about the project that you're working on, or a code base that you're involved with, right, because that's, that's, that's what you know, that's what you're familiar with. That's something that is easy for you to talk about. But at some point, you want to take topics for a call for paper at a conference that's have a well, a larger mind share with potential audience. And there's a number of things which I mentioned earlier, if you if you have some sort of online presence with a blog, you have some luck, because you can basically look at your actual blog statistics and see which articles are doing all write on your blog, which gets the most traffic. But if you don't have an online presence, there are still opportunities out there to get yourself familiar with topics that have a higher level of interest with people going to conferences, because if you if you keep up to date with with the developer news in the iOS ecosystem, for example, you have to iOS deaf, weekly, and other newsletters. And you can see usually that if you just take a couple of issues of a certain newsletter, you can just see what piques the interest of the newsletter curator, because just looking at that, you can say, Okay, you're picking these these topics. And first of all, if you create a newsletter, you will do that to be able to well gain the interest of people reading your newsletter and to keep the interest of people reading your newsletter. So there's some selection bias going on there. That's in those newsletters, there's usually things that the author of this newsletter thinks people in the audience would find interesting to read about. So that's already some sort of a selection that you can go by to see, okay, that's interesting things, I see something about Swift UI with combine or something. And I see that like a couple of times, and I find it interesting myself as well. And it's mentioned in the newsletter, that's like a double confirmation that that's a topic that you could look into. And it is especially good, if it is topic you reach out to but I know well, this I'm doing this like everyday in such and such project, then you have some little nuggets of value there. Because it is something that apparently people might find interesting. And you have hands on experience with that. That's a good combination, because then you can present from experience instead of from documentation. And presenting from experience is always easier, because if it gets challenging to to present, then because you have experienced with a specific topic, it's more easy for you to keep going to keep talking and make sure that you have a concise and incorrect story about the content that you're talking about. So that's some of the ways that you can get a content thing going so that you can select something to talk about. But then there's the aspect of of spinning a call for paper and what some of the things that you think are important in a good coffee paper submission, Martin. Well, Martin Mitrevski: yeah, that's a good question. So first, you've mentioned the the topic itself is very important. So how relevant is the topic and conference organizers know these things by either reading those newsletters that you've mentioned, or even scrolling through Twitter's iOS community, you will see what people are talking about what is school? What are the new technologies, also, WWDC is a great indicator for what might be the attractive topics for that period of time. So definitely, having an attractive topic helps. And then the other part is how you your pitch. So basically, there's a pitch for your talk. And hear, I think that's quite a hard part, especially if you're new. So if you're very well established speaker, then it's easier to get away with, with some top proposals. I even have seen speakers not submitting proposals, but doing that just before the conference because they give a name for themselves and the organizers are pretty sure that they will deliver. But if you're, you're not that popular than writing this pitch for your talk is really crucial. And that's usually I think, around up to 300 characters, so it's not really long. And that's what's visible on the websites of the conferences. But version three, also a lot of conferences, provide another field that's not visible. And that's the description of your talk. And here you can find details about what your talk would be about. And of course, the more details you provide, the more likely the conference organizers will understand what you're trying to share in this talk. And it also shows that you're really familiar with the topic. So if you say, Okay, I will speak about this and this and this, and then the deeper this and this, and this, then it gives some some confidence to the conference organizers. And also, if you're not, if you're trying to break into conference, speaking, sometimes even recording YouTube videos, so you can just make it unlisted, or private, a few talking about this talk. So basically, sharing this talk also helps a lot in trying to convince organizers that you're a Jeroen Leenarts: good fit. And also, one thing that works really well, if you're trying to write a pitch for call for paper, is what I call the four w's. And that's the, that's the what, whoo, why, and why. So, so first of all, we want to share what you will be talking about, then you should mention who you are planning to talk to. So what's your what's your target audience? And why should you be talking about this topic? And why should people that are in attendance? In your talk? Why should they actually go to your talk? So So what are you talking about? Who are you talking to? Why should you be talking about it? And why should people go to your talk, if you can answer those four questions. And that's very hard to do sometimes 300 characters, but try to, then you have a solid call for paper submission, I think, because you would immediately for the conference, CFP committee, they would they would be able to answer those questions, because that's the questions that, that you that you have. If you're putting together a conference schedule, you want to know if it's, if it's on topic for your conference, if it fits with your audience, and if the speaker is good, and if it would be interesting to the people coming to your conference. But then again, also, if you write your call for paper submission in this way, most likely that public part of your golf paper submission is then immediately they can just copy paste it into the conference roster if they select your paper. And that's also very convenient for conference organizers. If there's like a call for paper submission that has, if they select you to take a just copy, paste the description, and they're pretty much done with putting you on the schedule, right? So again, what who, why, why? What are you talking about? Who are you talking to? Why should you be talking about this? And why should people go to your talk, if you can answer those four questions in a call for paper submission, then you have a very solid call for paper going for yourself, and it improves your chance of getting that, wow, it improves your chance of being selected. And this can happen on a stage as well that you actually start tripping on your own time. And he didn't start fumbling. But that's pretty much it. I think, Martin, I think we're there, right? Yeah, yeah. Okay. Well, by the you're going to a conference or you're on stage at the conference, there's a number of things that you should keep in mind. First of all, don't freak out. You got this. People are forgiving, both in the audience. But also if you're on stage, keep be mindful of that. People are not there to lynch you, if you make a mistake. Try to prepare yourself and be well aware of the time because it's very annoying if you're on a conference and you go like over time by by minutes. And also one big tip that I can give because you are in different countries, most likely or they're people with different walks of life. Be mindful of going into these typical topics, just don't do it. So don't go into politics. Be sensitive about sensitive topics, and it's okay to have an opinion on some things. But make sure to check yourself on that opinion. Is this the venue that you actually should be voicing that opinion or not? Because especially if you're in another country, you don't want to get yourself in trouble in ways that you couldn't have foreseen just because you're used to being able to voice a specific opinion in your own country. So with that, I'd say yeah, don't freak out with all world conditions. So right now, hopefully everything will be alright. And if there's no questions, then I'd say talk to you again next time. Yeah, Questions. So thanks, everybody. And Martin, thank you very much for for stepping up and stepping in for Stefan, because he was very sorry that he couldn't be here himself. But as we shared last time, he's still recovering from some knee surgery. And I'm told by a number of people that need surgery, of course, comparatively, in what had what's happening in the world, it's just knee surgery, right? But it's a very painful and annoying recovery process that you have to go through. So all the best tools they found, and again, thanks, everybody for listening, and I'll talk to you again next week. Yeah, Unknown: thanks, everyone.