Matteo Manferdini, teaches advanced iOS concepts.

Jeroen Leenarts: Hi, and welcome to another special edition of her podcast. I'm sitting here with Matteo Manfredini. I hope I pronounced that correctly. And he's actually in Amsterdam. That's pretty close to where I am. And what's interesting about Matteo is that he actually does a lot of things for himself. So he's a solopreneur, or a freelancer, or well, basically, he does all kinds of things. And it's very interesting to dig into why he's doing what he's doing and how he got started with that. So hi, Matteo, how you doing today? Matteo Manferdini: Hello, everyone. I'm good. How are you? Jeroen Leenarts: So your last name? Where is it? From? What what country? Are you from? Actually? Matteo Manferdini: I am Italian? Actually. It's a somewhat common Italian surname. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay. And but as an Italian, how do you deal with the Dutch climates? Matteo Manferdini: And? Well, I get this question a lot. But I come from the north of Italy, close to the mountains, where it actually snows a lot. So I'm actually happy, I don't have to shovel the snow out of my doorway in the winter. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay, so, um, but you're active as an iOS developer? Or maybe I should call you an iOS teacher. Can you tell us a little bit about what you do day to day? Matteo Manferdini: So at the moment, I am teaching iOS development. So in a way, yes, you can call me and I use teacher. I have a website where I publish articles. And then I have some online courses. Although I do still some development. Let's see in my spare time. So I have an app in the Mac App Store as Jeroen Leenarts: well. Okay. And what's the app called? Matteo Manferdini: It's called Vulcan. It's a tool to create swift UI apps. So it's sort of a meta app made in Swift UI to make swift UI. Yes. Jeroen Leenarts: And you also mentioned that you in some capacity are teaching things. What are you teaching? Exactly? Because I don't think you do like many intro to iOS development courses, right? Matteo Manferdini: Well, I do intro to iOS development at the moment. i Well, for the past six years, I focused on people that already know Swift programming. So my basic course is actually for iOS development. But it assumes that you know, how to program in Swift, like the basics, like structures and control flow and stuff like that. I am actually now developing with another person, Swift course. So I will move back a little bit and get people that actually want to get into iOS development, starting with Swift. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay, so and teaching, is that something that you've always done? Or is it something that you specifically picked? For a reason? So so how did you get into this specific niche? In the development world? Matteo Manferdini: There are a couple of reasons. The first is that I've been a teacher many times during my life. I was teaching high school students, maths, and physics and computer science when I was myself studying computer science. And many people actually told me that I was a very good teacher, because I have, apparently, like, as they say, the ability to understand like, the gaps that people have that are not experts, which is something that many other experts forget, they forget how hard it is at the beginning. So I already had that capacity. And then I always wanted to run my own company. So after working for a couple of companies, as an employee, I switched to freelancing for five years. And then I switched to teaching iOS development, because it was sort of like natural transition to actually having my own business and doing something that I was good at both teaching and iOS development. So that's how I ended up where I am. Okay, Jeroen Leenarts: well, let's drop down a timeline a little bit because we're in 2021. And when was it that you did these extracurricular activities in teaching your fellow students? Matteo Manferdini: I was in university in from 1999 until 2006, seven beginning of 2007. So in that period, I also had the job. It was a private school. It was not a public school, because I didn't have the time to work full time. So there I taught maths, physics and computer science to different high school students. Then I graduated, I got some normal My job in Italy, in software development, but not us. But I did iOS by myself on the side. And then I moved to Amsterdam, in 2010. Worked for hives, which was a big social network at the time like Facebook. Jeroen Leenarts: And comparatively, right, because homes was was hives mostly a thing in the Netherlands? Or was it was Matteo Manferdini: mostly that yes, it was just, but at the time, Facebook was not that big yet. So they were sort of competitors, then then Facebook just won because it was international. Jeroen Leenarts: I guess the thing with hives that I remember is, it's a dancing banana. And I don't know why it was but some, for some reason people use that a lot. But Matteo Manferdini: they are now now. Now it's a gaming company. So maybe that has something to do with that. Jeroen Leenarts: I'll try and look up if I can find that distinct gift from from the show notes. Because it's it's it brings back memories. It brings back memories, if you ever were on hives back in the day. So 2010 You started in Amsterdam at hives? Matteo Manferdini: Yes. And then after that I worked at an agency where we just made iOS apps for various clients. And after that I went solo a freelancing, I believe it was 2,003rd, teen 2012 or 2013. And I did that for five years. And in the last year. So I started this online business. So that's 2015. I was still doing both at the time. In 2016. I stopped freelancing, I had my last client. And since then I've been doing only teaching iOS development. Jeroen Leenarts: So was it like a gradual shift that you made from purely freelancing contract based work towards a more teaching style of income? Matteo Manferdini: Yes, yes. At the beginning, I was like, like most of my freelancing years, I was just working full time. Then I started my online business. Well, it was a blog at first but but that was the always the aim. In the evenings and in the weekends. And then slowly, I started asking like more days, which is pretty simple when you're a freelancer. So I started working four days per week as a freelancer and then three days per week. And then in 2016, things were going well enough that we're not big enough yet to sustain myself, but I knew that the trajectory was good. So that's when like, when I finished the assignment at my last client, then I decided not to look for other clients and just go full full in on Jeroen Leenarts: there go full in on the on the teaching work and try and accelerate the growth of that at that point in time. So but what was it like then, initially, you were doing contract work. And then at some point, you start the block with a goal and you start developing some some coursework, and then you have your first client that actually pays you for training. But what was like, what was it like the moment that you actually felt, hey, I can actually succeed at being a teacher and let go of the contract work? Matteo Manferdini: Well, it was it was not sudden, I actually the first thing I did, I wrote an e book that doesn't exist anymore, because it was in Objective C, I started my blog when there was no swift yet. So the first articles were in Objective C, and then I wrote that ebook, and I built an email list as as you often do online. And then I sold some copies of the e book, I made a couple of 1000 euros, I believe, a bit less probably. But then I had no idea what to do next. Because this is what everybody tells you is just like start a website and get an email list. And then you can sell ebooks, and then I did that. And then I was like, Okay, now what like first of all, is not that big amount of money as many other people say they make. So I mean, like it's it's, it's not bad, but it's not life changing. Jeroen Leenarts: It's so nice spare change, but it's in a way a replacement for a true income. And especially Matteo Manferdini: especially when I was freelancing because freelancing I was charging a lot of money, like I was working sometimes for big clients. So my rates were were pretty high. So I was like, Okay, now what, and then I discovered Ramiz Satie, which has a website is called I Will Teach You To Be Rich. He has many online courses. One of like, several of them are about online business. So he had this course that was called Zero to Launch that now is called a novel. So I took that course so I learned more about business actually is like how do we grow a business? What are the parts of our business is not just a blog with an e book So then I started working on that, that's when swift came out. So I started working with Swift I made, I made my first course directly about Swift, even though it was still a bit early. Swift was like, version tools. So I was still unstable. And then the switching was Jeroen Leenarts: released release of Xcode was exciting, right? Not exactly. Matteo Manferdini: So it was a, it was a bit shaky, but, but I knew that like, there was going to be what everybody would use in some years. So I just abandoned Objective C. So I made the first course and that beginning was small, and the price was pretty low. And then I started getting feedback from people, I added more lessons, and raised the price, and started writing more to attract people. So I learned a lot about marketing. And then I made a second course, which is targeted at Advanced iOS developers, or at least developers that want to become advanced. So I talked about architecture I talked about, like many of the advanced concepts that I couldn't cover in my basic course, that are sort of needed if you want to advance but not needed at the beginning. So at the beginning, you can do a lot of things with basic knowledge. But then you get to a certain point where there are harder concepts you should know, like protocol oriented programming, generics, unit testing, concurrency, domain specific languages, stuff like that. So then I made my second course. And that's when, like, I saw, I think it was it was earlier than that, like, I saw that the revenue was already going up. So I went full in. And that's when I started making the course. And after six months, I released it, even though it was not complete yet. And, and then, and then it became sustainable. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay, so you were actually selling the course, before you created it. Matteo Manferdini: What Not before I created it, actually, I bought like some of my students of my previous course, as better students. So I was creating the material and sending to them. And then like I had, let's say, practically half of what, less less than half of what the final course would be. But all my students were already saying like, Oh, this is so helpful. There is there are a lot of lessons here. So it's like, okay, then if it's already helpful, if it is not complete, I can start selling it at a lower price, I will tell people listen, the course is not complete. And that's why you can have it for less right now. Or you if you want you can wait until it's finished, then you will pay full full price. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, so that's a typical early early access scheme that allows you if you're in early, then you get a benefit by being willing to take this chance with you as an author, which is Matteo Manferdini: like the strategy I use for my core first course as well. I mean, like I made it very small. So it was sort of like a minimum viable product. It had only like a few modules of what I really thought was fundamental, but it was missing many things. So I sold it for a very low price. And then from there, I expanded it and raised the price. Jeroen Leenarts: So But and if you look at all of this, of course you were already quite well versed in in software development, writing SWIFT codes, and creating apps and doing all those things, because that's what you've been doing day to day as a freelancer and all the jobs before that. What were the hardest things for you to, to learn and to come to grips with in this journey from you being a contractor to being a teacher, Matteo Manferdini: it was actually learning about business. I mean, like the iOS part was pretty much done. Even though when I made my second course, I researched a lot. And I even developed a couple of things that are sort of prepared proprietary, if you want. But but the iOS part was never an issue because I've been doing that for many years, like the business part instead was was the main issue already when I started freelancing, because when I started, I got a client through a friend. And it was a very nice client. And it was an interesting app, but it didn't pay much. And then I didn't have clients for a couple of months. Then I found another client for a couple of months and then I didn't have clients for some more months. So it's the typical like feast and famine. thing that many freelancers talk about. So after a while I was thinking there is something I have to do here because clearly many other people can be freelancers and my technical skills or not the issue, I need to know how to find clients. And that's when I started actually learning about business. So I started following different people. One was me Hi, I don't know if she's still around. Brendan, Dan was also talking about freelancing. So then I started learning. Okay, there is a lot of business side in actually being a freelancer is not just being a software developer. Like, if you want to be a software developer, then you need to be an employee. If you want to be a freelancer, you need to be a business owner, and you learn need to learn about finding clients and referrals and pricing and all that kind of stuff. So that's where I started learning about business. And first, it was about freelancing, and then, and then I switched to online because that's what I wanted to do. Anyway, freelancing has always been a transition for me, like I always had the idea of having something on my own. And freelancing was just a step to get there. Jeroen Leenarts: That because I can imagine that you if you're a salaried employee, then there are some restrictions in place on how you can spend your time and how you can choose to spend your time. And with being a freelancer, you gain a lot of flexibility. First of all, what hours of the day you were actually doing the client work, but also what days of the week you were doing the client work, but then also these these business aspects that you keep mentioning? What are some of the things that you have to deal with? Because you already mentioned finding clients doing the referrals? But earlier in our conversation, you also mentioned specifically marketing? How does this all tie in together? Because what I noticed, because I wrote an ebook myself as well. And what I really notice in my case, is that once people know about me, and once they know about my book, they're perfectly happy with just giving me some money so that you can read content. But getting to that stage, that's like the thing that I'm really dealing with. And I'm thinking like, Okay, what am I missing here? Yeah, and I reckon that you've been at that similar position as well. years ago? Matteo Manferdini: Yes. Well, I if we talk specifically about the online business, which is probably something that interests you more, since you have an e book as well, most of my marketing, let's say, is content marketing. So it's the actually the articles I write on, on my blog. At the beginning, it was just writing some articles and sharing them in some places. Then I started working more or less on search engine optimization, so I get more traffic from Google. Also a bit more on promoting the articles, I go on Reddit, and I interact with people, sometimes I recommend my articles. Let's see. That's, that's mainly the, let's say, the content marketing side, then I do other marketing as well, I pay for ads on on some websites, I've tried Facebook didn't work that, well, Reddit seems to be working pretty well. But I also advertise on some of my, let's say, competitors websites. So there is like, Swift by Sundale. Swiftly, they all write about iOS development, like I do, but they have traffic. And so I pay for advertisement. To do that, you need to be able to know the the value of your customers so like, not only about the first transaction, but also what they will buy later. So I have two courses for now. But then, like, I have a certain lifetime value, and I can see if my ads are working or not, depending on how much I'm spending to get get subscribers. So that's the let's say the marketing part. But one thing that I learned, for example from Jay Abraham is that there are three ways of, of growing a business. One is finding new customers, one is raising that transaction value, and one is increasing the times of purchase. And of the three the first one is actually the hardest one and this is something that nobody ever tells you. So the marketing part is the hardest one man once you can attract people, if you of course create good products, then they will are willing probably to buy more products. So having more products is the it's the best way actually to scale the business. And to raise the transaction value then you need to learn a lot about copywriting. So you need to learn how to do customer research to understand what the customers want. And then you need to learn how to write that in in your emails. Like it starts from the article. So like my, my free articles are already based on the research I do about what people actually need. And then I spelled that out also in I sales emails and on my sales pages, so then I'm able to sell courses with a pretty high price. And that's that's how this whole works practically. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, because what I'm noticing is that writing about content is, well, it's quite easy. You just basically you have something in your head, then you just dump it on a piece of paper or on your screen, and then then do some editing on it so that it actually sounds reasonable, so to speak. But then writing copy that is actually enticing. And that actually ties into what the person visiting your page actually triggers on that. That's one of the hardest things that I noticed. Because it's not that you just tell them, hey, I do this. And if you find it interesting, then by all means by it, but it's more like getting warmed up. Sounds a bit weird, but it's more about getting into their mindset and just trying to understand why they are at your page and what are actually trigger points for them to actually come closer to actually buying what you have to offer to them. Right? Matteo Manferdini: Yes, and and indeed, like copywriting is a skill by itself, that the problem is like when you are a business owner, then you have many hats, like I am a software developer, but I'm also a copywriter, and I'm also the CEO that makes the decisions and I'm also the product creator and I'm also the head of marketing. So it's like these are all different skills and you need to master them all. So it's hard and for copywriting I bought several courses. Again like from ramets It is a very good copywriting course is called the call to action. There are other sources like there is a blog is called the Copy Hackers. They are also they are just copywriters. So they're very good copywriters. And they also have courses but last time I checked, they were extremely expensive. I mean, like, I'm all for paying for expensive courses. And many of the courses I bought were expensive. I bought courses for five $6,000 If they're worth it, or more for spending that I don't know about their course. But they are very famous as copywriters. So I'm sure it's a good course. Otherwise, the one from our MidState is also a good course. It's also not cheap, but not at that level. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay, but and then, because you are constantly busy with creating the coursework and doing all the work surrounding the coursework to actually be able to sell it and to create conversion from visitors. How do you stay on top of the technical content? So how do you learn? How do you get some practical experience? So that's what we're talking about. And what you're teaching is actually applicable to people who are also doing software development with iOS? Matteo Manferdini: Well, there are different things. One is, I am subscribed to pretty much any iOS development newsletter that exists, I don't do a great job of reading them all, I have now a folder with like, a couple of hundreds of emails that are still there to be read. But I use those to keep myself updated, of course, like most articles are about things I already know. So I skim the titles. And if it's something that looks interesting, I read it. And sometimes I agree sometimes I completely disagree. But even when I disagree, it's useful to know what other people are doing. Because one of the things I do in my courses is actually make comparisons and tell people, there is this other option, I don't think it's a good option for these. And these reasons. And this is better. So that's the first thing I do. The second thing I do is constantly ask my students, I get a lot of feedback of what they want to learn. So I know actually what is relevant to them. Because online, there are often often a lot of articles about some topics that like sort of fancy, but in reality, nobody uses that stuff and nobody cares. So I really asked my students what they want and or what the problems they have are. And then like when I make the courses, I make some research. So like let's say there is a topic. It's the solid principles, one of the modules of my advanced course. So I go and research them. And then I go and look at examples. And then I tried to apply them to the there is a big iOS app in the course as an example. So I tried to apply them there. And then like I usually bump into problems and I'm like, okay, these are the principles say so but is this really true? Is there another way so like sometimes I rewrite the code like three or four times before I get to the final version that I'm satisfied for teaching. Because of course, if it was for development as soon as it works, then it's fine. But if I had to teach that, yes, exactly. But if I have to teach it, then I want it to be like, perfect is a it's a, it's a big word. But like, it needs to be solid, like from a conceptual point of view. So like, when I say things, they need to be applicable to everybody's work, and like, not just an opinion, but something that I tried many times. And then of course, there is all the experience I had, both as an employee and as a freelancer, I worked in some pretty big companies. So I've seen many techniques there as well, that I didn't know before. But like when you work in a big team, there are different perspectives. And again, like sometimes I didn't agree with what my clients were doing, I still did it because they paid me and so I was like, you pay I do whatever you want. But even though sometimes I told them, Listen, I don't really agree with this, but I'll do it anyway. So that gave me a lot of perspective for the material I produce. Jeroen Leenarts: So one thing that is interesting that you mentioned there is that a lot of your coursework is actually built around a central example app that you mentioned, how big is this example, if I might ask Matteo Manferdini: in, if you're asking lines of code, I have no idea because they never measured it, I can tell you, I can tell you what it is. It's an app, like, as usual, it's GitHub app. It has several screens. So it has a screen to see your own profile and the profile of other people. You can see the repositories, you can see the content of repository, you can star and unstart and follow people. So there is a lot of code that is actually related to networking to working with REST API is like sending data not only receiving, and then like I use that, to show when you have a large job that has like multiple screens, code is going to be repeated. So you abstract the code, then I use like generics, protocol oriented programming and stuff like that. This is what I can tell you about the size of the app, it's a lot of code. I know that because every time I open the project is is very large. I never measured though. So I can get you the number if you want after Jeroen Leenarts: that. It's mostly what what is interesting there is that test like it's all what you're trying to teach is all based on like a piece of code that has some significance. And that's, I think, very important for people to know when they get into your funnel that they end up with access to this piece of code and all the material surrounding it. And because I actually had the opportunity to look at some of your work earlier. And I must say it's it all looks really well put together. And also the progression through the content is really nice. To me, there was a lot of unknowns in there. But even I learned some new things. So just by reading some of your content. And that was very interesting. And I think that if people are looking for some sort of a next step that they can take that bound to be something in your catalog that they definitely should have a look at. On the marketing thing, and on the development and on the teaching. How long is your typical week? Is it? Do you stay within the 40 hour ish? Or is Matteo Manferdini: it hourly? It always depends. Like, it really depends how people measure this. Because like nobody that says that works. eight week, eight hours per day works eight hours per day. Yeah. So if you just count the hours you are in the office, then yes, it's eight hours, but you go to the toilet, you get coffee, you talk to others. So like, let's say productive work around three hours per day depends like if I do some stuff in the evening, then it can get to four or five. But the average is three, which is sort of like the productive work that a person can get in an eight hours a day. Yeah, I usually work on weekends as well. So it's, it's a choice. It's not something I have to do. But like that's another thing is like the problem is when you run a business, then the business is always there and there is always stuff to do. And the sooner you do it, the better so Jeroen Leenarts: and there's also when you're like walking down the street, getting your groceries even when you're just walking down the street, there can be something happening in in some sort of back background thread in your mind that at some point, and something pops in your head and that you think, yeah, that's the solution that I was looking for. So that's very annoying, always good to have some note pathway through then. But if you then Let's rephrase the question. If you look at the amount of work that you spent on your business, what takes the most time? And how much of your time do you spend on marketing, on administration on creating coursework on actually teaching the coursework? Because I know that you the coursework that you create is mostly recorded or it's written, right? Matteo Manferdini: It's right, yeah, it's both recorded and written. The recordings are about like, most of the theory, so the stuff I can record, but then when I have to show code, I don't like code in videos, I don't like people that code in videos that I don't want to watch them type, I just want to see the code. And then like from videos, it's hard to copy and paste code. So when I show code it's written, but then when I, when I can do it, it's recorded. Regarding of what takes the most time, it's, it's definitely creating the material. I wish I could spend more time on marketing and other stuff. But like, especially in software development, ie, I have other friends with other businesses, like I have a Business Mastermind every two weeks with some other business owners. And I also help other friends with their own businesses. And I see that their production time is much smaller. The problem of teaching AI development in general is that you have to write the code and writing code takes time. And then you have to explain the code. So it's much easier to talk about business or to talk about fitness than it is to talk about iOS development. So making the courses takes most of my time, especially now that I have to update them because like, first Apple introduced swift UI, and now they introduced sink await. So there is a lot of time spent there. I would say two thirds of my time are spent on creating courses and 1/3 on the other stuff. So that could be like writing articles or running ads, writing sales pages, or sales emails and stuff like that. Jeroen Leenarts: That's, that's very different compared to doing contract work, right? Matteo Manferdini: It is, it is and like, again, like, I make this Mac OS up in my spare time as a hobby, because sometimes I just want to write code that I don't have to explain to anybody just needs to work. I mean, like, I still applied many of the things that I explained in my courses, because if I wouldn't believe in them, I wouldn't explain them. So they work and I use them. But it's not a piece of code the day you have to sell tell people like this is how it works. So I can write it however I want. If I want to take a shortcut, sometimes I can. It's it's it's much more relaxing than actually having to explain code. Jeroen Leenarts: So but how do you feel the next day or once you've taken a shortcut somewhere in your makeup? Matteo Manferdini: I Well, the thing is, like, there are always small ones. I never, like take big ones. And I often refactor stuff as soon as I see like, like, if it works, it stays there. But the moment I have to touch it, and like I have to reuse it probably then I'm like, Okay, this, this doesn't work anymore. Sometimes, like I did some big refactoring recently because I had to change the structure of the of the app to accommodate for new features. And so I split the app into different swift packages for example, that took me a long time before it was just in a single Xcode project. If I did it from the start would have been better but you sometimes you realize these things only too late. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay, so I'm just to switch gears a little bit. What was the first computer that you as a kid ever got your hands on? Matteo Manferdini: Oh, well, that I owned a when I was 11 years old. The computer was an Olivetti which is an Italian brand like it wasn't a company in Italy. It was making computers long time ago. They don't exist anymore. A was I don't even remember the processor. It was like screen. The screen was monochromatic, like green. Yeah, he that floppy disk, like really floppy. They're 525 Yeah, they the big ones. Jeroen Leenarts: It was first like an IBM Don't write an E or an at an 8086 processor or something along those lines, Matteo Manferdini: maybe like it had like some kilobytes of RAM. I was like really, really. And like, I just got it because I asked my father, like for computer for games. So my father bought this computer with some games on it. And he just gave it to me. And then like, I switched on the computer. And there was like the DOS prompt. And I had no idea what to do. I was like, how do I start the games? So he asked, Were embodied. And he told him like, okay, to switch to go to the directory of the games, you have to write CD games. And then you write there to have a list. And then they were executable. So I started playing the games. And then I started, okay, I did there immediately on the main path to see what was there. And I saw like, oh, there is a das directory, what's inside of there. And then I started running each comment that I could find, to see what did and so that's that's how I started with computers. Jeroen Leenarts: And that's also when, from that experience, you grew your interest into becoming a software developer through education Matteo Manferdini: now, well, not yet. Because I didn't know that there was a job that existed. So I went to high school thinking I would be a chemist, because I really liked chemistry when I was a kid. And then, like, I got a computer just because like, I don't know, again, like I was a kid. And like, I didn't, I wasn't really interested in a scooter, like my peers. So I asked for a computer and set for to my parents, again, to play games, mainly. Yeah. And then like, we had some programming classes in high school. And I found them really interesting. So I was doing that more than actually the school assignments. But still, I didn't know what to do. Because I didn't know computer science was a career path. So I was thinking, maybe I'll be a doctor. And then the last year of high school, I just saw flyer, Computer Science University was like, Oh, is there a university for this, then I'll do it. And then I went there. And then that's how I became a software developer. Jeroen Leenarts: So typical path of being introduced to this stuff at a young age for games. And then, at some point, discovering that there's more you can actually learn and do with these things beyond playing games or writing papers. So is there anything that we that we forgot, Matteo? Or something that you want to mention? Matteo Manferdini: Um, no, I think like, we would cover pretty much everything, what I do and what I did in the past. Jeroen Leenarts: But then the most important thing is to let you have the opportunity to tell how people can find you online. So how can people find you online? Matteo Manferdini: So my main and only actually website or not, I have to like, but my teaching website is material manfredini.com. That's where I write about iOS development. My Courses are not on sale on the website. They're only for sale to people in my email list. So if people are interested in those courses, they have to get into my email list. And they have to wait that I open enrollment, they're not always open. Then I have another website, which was my company website is called pure cricket.com. That's how, where now I put my makeup and where it has a bit of documentation as well. So these are the two venues. Jeroen Leenarts: So and and just out of curiosity, why the the path through the email list and that you allow enrollment? Well, basically on a cohort, like basis, because that's what you tend to do, right? Work with cohorts, let people start simultaneously and then have group of people go through the coursework, so that you can support all of them in a in a similar position in your coursework, or, Matteo Manferdini: Yes, well, we it works, it works better. The thing is, like, if I put my courses on my website, especially since they are high priced courses, probably very few people would buy them. There is like, they would just say, Oh, it's an expensive course they don't know what's inside. They have no way of knowing what's inside. So one thing that I learned from Jay Abraham is that you have to invest in your customers much more and much earlier than they invest in you. So the thing is, like, I have a lot of free articles on my website, I always try to write more, although the time is limited. Then they get into my email list. They get some more FREE guides, and they get some more free articles and then when I open In the courses, they get some more free emails with free material. So the thing is like, by the moment, they get to buy the course, they know me, they know what I do. They know my articles, they know like the material I share only by email. So they know what I provide, and they already received a lot of value, which they can keep, like, even if they don't buy anything, they already got a lot like there are people that can do a lot already with my free articles, there is more in my free articles than I actually knew when I started as an iOS developer, in my first job in in hives, so at that moment, then they can make an educated choice and decide if my course is for them. And if it's better than what it's offered elsewhere. Otherwise, they would never know. Otherwise, it would be just a high priced course, I will sell probably some call copies as well. But it will work as you might Jeroen Leenarts: rather have like, truly, fully engaged customer that you can support to the level that they expect, of course, also due to the price of the of the products. And then next time or in the follow up course that they are happy to return again, as a customer. Matteo Manferdini: Yes, I also want people to be like, dedicated to learning. So again, like if it was just on my website, people would just buy it maybe and then like, I don't like it, I want my money back. I do offer 60 days refund. But it's only for people that really tried the course. And and and they decide it's not for them because they're not learning anything or it's not working. So like First, I need them to know what I do. Because also what I do is very specific and is different from others. So I want them to know it beforehand. So when they actually get to the course, if they didn't like it, they left already they unsubscribe from my email list. And they didn't even get the chance to buy the course, the moment they get there. They know what, what, what, what's inside, let's say. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay, so that's, that's a good overview of how your email list works. So everybody who's listening, if you like, what Matteo and I have talked about, have a look at material manfredini.com Sign up to his newsletter, and who knows where you'll end up. And you might learn a lot of things along the way while you're doing that. So let's say Oh, thank you very much for your time. And I really enjoyed talking with you. And I look forward to to what plans you have for the future with your business. Because what I've seen from it, that looks really nice and there's good stuff in there. So I highly recommend it to anybody who wants to take a next step in iOS development to also consider the stuff that you have to offer. Matteo Manferdini: Thank you very much for having me.