Samuël Maljaars, lead developer at Donkey Mobile

Jeroen Leenarts: Hi, and welcome to another special episode of my podcast. I'm sitting here with Samuel Malia's. He's somebody I know from my own project history, I've worked with him on a big banking app. And I think there's a lot more to his backstory as well, because he was quite late to iOS development. And he did some other things before that. And nowadays, he works at a product company in the Netherlands, creating an app for the local markets and Netherlands with a very specific target audience. So Samuel, Hi, how are you doing today? Samuel Maljaars: doing great today? This morning at standard by Seth. It's raining outside, but it's sunny inside? Jeroen Leenarts: Can you like tell a little bit on on what you do currently day to day because I know you do still do iOS development. But what are you working on nowadays, Samuel Maljaars: we are working on on an app for the church. So we give an app to every church that wants a great app. So and it's we build a native app. So we design it from our knowledge of the church because we we know that you're too we love the church, we believe in the future of the church. So we design a product around that. And that's very much like, the core of it is that it's a social platform with all features around it. And so, yeah, that's what I do. My speciality is I'm the lead developer, I was the first one to sign a contract with Donkey mobile. And I'm not the founder, the founder is endemic, and agreement, and he found me on Twitter. So I didn't know him before that. But they might tech line on Twitter, I say that I'm an iOS developer. And I'm Jesus follower. And he connected those two things. And he won't. So he was like, Yeah, I need that guy. He said, You can become the lead developer. I'm like, Oh, of course, like I know everything about leading now. But that sounds like a great job. And I just took it on me. And we started working on it with just the founder of the company, then UX designer, and me. But I literally only knew iOS development. So I said, Yeah, it's not enough. If this we can build a product. But we can we can, we can design a product and test it out. Until we find we find someone else to do go to the market. Jeroen Leenarts: So would you say that you got involved with Donkey mobile at the point in time, when they were pretty much in the inception phase of the product, and also the company itself. So they had they had an idea of what they wanted to create. Samuel Maljaars: One guy had an idea. And he contacted me in the summer of 2018. Yeah, he just sent me message, like an email. And like, you get so many, but this was like, Hey, I have this idea. I found you here. And let's let's have a call. And I'll give you a pitch of my idea. And at that time, I was working for clockwork. And I was in a really cool project for the police. The How do you call it our started team, the team that arrests people, and they needed a special app to recruit new people in there. So I was really fun. I was involved with the project also from the very start new app. And I was like, Oh, this is a great pitch about like making an app for churches. I really liked the product. I liked it. It was really small, the theme, but I also really liked what I was working on sighs like I'm first gonna finish this. And then I want to do it took me a while to think about it and stuff. But yeah, I already was like, this is really what I like. And so then in took after half year after he contacted me, we started to three persons. So he already quit his job right after the summer and just started on finding investors and stuff. So then the investors for the because it was a startup so that we could start it. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay, so And how was it for you to just be contacted out of the blue by somebody you don't know at all and then just get like such a pitch thrown at you that is apparently was very convincing for you to pick up on. So what was the process? Because I can imagine that your initial thought when you read the initial email you were like, Who's this guy? Well, what does he want from me? Yeah. Oh, Samuel Maljaars: Of course, of course, and you get so many times the question, so do you want this or that? And then you have to think about it is this what I want? Is this, you know, are the is it a good agreement, a good contract for startup I found I got get a really good contract with them. And I really like the, the pitch. So it was there. From the start of my career. I started working for smaller companies all the time. So I started with Capgemini, which is really superduper, large company, where you can do everything that you want, you just have to pursue it. And then if you're lucky, you, you find it, and you can go for it. And that's how I started on mobile. And that was really great until they didn't have any iOS jobs anymore. And I wanted to do that and be really good at that. So then I switched to another company. And that was more an agency. And now I was like, yeah, now can, but it was still it was still like consultancy type work like you can be go to a project, then to another project, you're not fully in control yourself. And now I'd opportunity to really be in a product company. And that I really like. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay. And you mentioned something interesting to her already, in the sense that you were contacted by this person, what's his name again? Samuel Maljaars: Henrik venal. Jeroen Leenarts: So. So you were contacted by Henrik? Because he saw your profile online? Because you're an iOS developer? And because you had a pretty good track record? I think. And did you start out with iOS development right from the start? When you started at Capgemini? In I think it was April 2011. Samuel Maljaars: Yeah, that's right. When I started there, it was like, well, they said, it's like a huge company. And so you just have to see what you want. And I liked mobile already there. And I was like, what's interesting in the market, so I'm like, I'm going to focus on that. And now luckily, there are other people like Capgemini that really like that, that spot. So yeah, I sort of was also dragged into that a bit. With a guy, he was Snipes, Eddie. And he pulled me into it. And after I was already at ING, we did many presentations on mobile and mobile testing, because that was my specialty at first. So yeah, that's how it started. So Jeroen Leenarts: you, you started as a testing engineer, and then made the switch to full on iOS software development, or what was the process, Samuel Maljaars: I was just a tester. And then I got trained to also do test automation, and to see where this all comes along with that field. And then I really started got opportunity to really do that ing. And so yeah, I did that for a long time at ING test automation, and running on multiple devices. And presenting about that. And then it said, All, that's great. But now we also want you to do development and teach older developers how to test because everyone needed to do everything there. And I just like, Yeah, that's great. I love that opportunity. So I literally got the chance to do that, and taught myself how to do iOS programming, also, that sort of crash course in five days, you know, and read books on it. And, and just learned it on the job. And also build my own app. And, and this was a little crazy investment in time. But yeah, I really, really loved it. I I mean, I'm a person who, who likes many different things and finds it's hard to make a choice. But when it's there, and I see it, then I just go for it. And, and that's what I did with iOS development. I fully like focused on it, and work many, many nights to build my own app and get it life and then yeah, of course it ing focus artistic and to, to to create cool stuff and to learn about it. Yeah. Jeroen Leenarts: So yeah, because I still remember that. That transition you were going through from being a test engineer to at some point, becoming a part of the team as a software developer. Because I was on the same project with you back then. So how much was the the project team instrumental in you learning iOS development? Or was it more that it was provided to you from Capgemini? Samuel Maljaars: No adapter was a fully from the project. So the project wanted me to do that. I mean, I got the chance to do it do. And so, of course, I was fully dedicated to do test automation. That was like my job there. So so that's all I did, you know, take care of Ivana, and stuff like that. But I was really happy that, that they let me switch and take on all their stuff. And, like, I like how you phrase that, like, how was the product team instrumental for that? Like, there are definitely like, some, some people in the team who really tagged me along. So and that was really great. Like, like, Orion year, you know, remember him? Yeah, I didn't talk to him much. Although, I haven't talked much to you. But I mean, great memories. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, I still remember crazy, if any. Yeah. Samuel Maljaars: And yeah, but really like sitting down and learning how to go line by line. And also with yella, we he learned me everything about like ping pong programming and things like that, like, really line by line and getting it down. And this was all Objective C, by the way. So yeah, I mean, I learned a lot of JavaScript. And that was with with Robert Lee, do you remember him? Yeah. And yeah, I mean, I like to bring all the names because I think it's just great. Because yeah, I'm anytime so on the to just, you know, say thank you to all those people. And of course, Pim and rest de PUE did a lot of work with me on the automation setup, and go to conferences also. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, the goal of this conference is yeah, let's, let's not go into that too much. Samuel Maljaars: But it was like, it was like a big family. And I have like, really great memories of that. It was, was really, really cool. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, I think that my time at img was at the same practical shoe for like, close to two and a half years. And I think for me, it was one of the projects I had the the most fun, but also that the work was the most intense, and that the results that we were creating, were so big, really, in what we were able to achieve in the amount of time that we had, that I still have like memories, like if I forget to do a project like that again, or that that that would be so awesome to just having the experience again, because I don't know what it is. But every time that I see back, one of the people from the project at ING, it's like, you don't need to like get to know each other any again, you don't need to reacquaint yourself, you just continue where you where you left off, like all those years ago. Samuel Maljaars: Yeah, that's right. You know exactly all the players in the team and what they were maybe struggling with, or like personalities. And because you had to work so hard, so focused on the product. With a lot of people also and it was just like fun. Like, Jeroen Leenarts: yeah, I had, I had payment Nandini on on a previous episode of my podcast, actually. And Samuel Maljaars: the I think the only podcast I listened to. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay, and so yeah, you got started that at Capgemini as a test engineer, and then you made the switch to iOS development. But let's let's go back a little bit further. Before you got started with professional software development related activities. How old were you when you get your first hands on something that resembled a computer? Samuel Maljaars: I remember at home we got the 386 I didn't do much on it. So I was just windows 95 Is the MS DOS and like a you know, startup a game from one of those big disks or smaller one, but I wasn't much like seriously, I wasn't that much into computers at school. I did, did do some things. But I usually was got pretty frustrated because we didn't get a very modern computer at home then afterwards and then I was usually a bit frustrated and it wouldn't like it wouldn't really work so well. And this So it wasn't much of my interest. And so I did do some computers and I did some don't do some things with Flash, try it out like some dream weaver or something later on. And I was like, man, and then and then touch it again. So Jeroen Leenarts: what is interesting is that you did try some things with, I don't know, mostly visual, but still some sense software development, because you had like, I think it was called Action scripts in, in, in Adobe Flash. So some it was sort of like JavaScript, like, if I remember correctly, but at what point did you really regain your interest in in computers and and making it a focus of your career? Samuel Maljaars: That was when I joined Capgemini. Jeroen Leenarts: So really, at the moment that you joined your first employer? Yeah. How did that happen? Because I reckon that you are graduates, you have your diplomas, and you're pretty much done with your studies. And then it's a love story. Oh, tell me more. She's still your wife now. Samuel Maljaars: Yeah. She's new, my wife. And so I was working on the job market, trying to find a job to do. So show my wife good stay in the Netherlands. And I mean, I finished off a degree as I hadn't, I hadn't really liked it so much. So I studied biomedical sciences in biomedical sciences. And it's like, it is a better degree, but I didn't like the lab work. So I did. lab work in the United States. And of course, it did in the United States, because my, my girlfriend, I've was from there. So I just, I met her in Amsterdam, we both worked in the in a youth hostel in there, and that was volunteer volunteering, work. And so it was like a Christian, you'd also where you meet people from all over the world, and you just talk about faith and worldview and things like that. And so she was doing that from the US. And I was just, and I met her there, and we fell in love and then I figured out how to be Yeah, then it was a long distance relationship, of course. So then you try to resolve that. Now firstly, I I did an internship where she was going to college. And I found something there. It was for seven months in a lap in the US working on some something called leishmania. mexicana. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay, what does it do? Besides sounds scary? Samuel Maljaars: Yeah, it's like a parasite with lives in the water. And it should already be long eradicated. Except for it. It only lives in poor countries. So the we don't care as the rich world. So it's still there. So why not do fundamental research all night on this parasite and see how his glucose systems work and stuff. So I did research on it on that thing, and it was more for the fundamental research and how this parasite exactly worked, and how we could like, infect it. So basically, if you now get the Pfizer for exam, it's carried on. It's this DNA is carried on, on some sort of carrier, and we were like, transfecting, these parasites also with some, some DNA and and see how that worked. Exactly. Okay. Yeah. No, I was pretty interesting. I learned a lot of stuff there. Jeroen Leenarts: So yeah, the the theoretic parts of that were interesting. But the the lab work was basically what it sounds like a lot of work. Samuel Maljaars: And what's what's pretty interesting, actually, in the lab, we had huge IMAX, where we would like, do genetic analysis on this on the genome of this parasite. Jeroen Leenarts: Mm hmm. So that's interesting what you say that because Was that your first contact with the Apple platform? Samuel Maljaars: Yeah. Yeah, I think so. That was the first time I really worked on really nice IMAX. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay, so you could say that it's a good thing that you went volunteering at a youth hostel. I think you said that you then by chance, met your future wife there. And then because you were living such a long distance away from each other. You decided to do some internship I think you said at a close to where she's living where she lived in the US, and also in Portland, Oregon, so in Portland, Oregon, and then you happen to land in an internship where you got in touch with Apple computers. Yeah. So that's, that's that's a lot of faith working in your favor there. I should say somewhere. Yeah, Samuel Maljaars: it is amazing. So I mean, every step of the journey it's been, it's been fantastic. And it's never liked what I planned it to be. So I mean, so you can have a very, so people have a very clear idea like from from primary school, I want to be a doctor and you know exactly what you're going to do. I never had that. Like, I never knew what I wanted to do. Exactly. And I liked everything and everything. And there's also a little bit like, whatever I pursued the I will work out somehow. So it was like, yeah, what to do? Just so. Yeah, so yeah, Jeroen Leenarts: you, you could say that you you, you stumbled along a little bit. And just by I don't know, a little bit of luck and a little bit of help from from the people around you. You were able to, to manage and to end up with a paid job at Capgemini. But what made you make the decision to switch from the internship in the US? Of course, after seven months, you had to go back to the Netherlands? Yeah, then just like going to Capgemini. And hey, can I get a job offer please? Samuel Maljaars: No, I mean, first urine. compliments on how good your your you are at still tracking this weird story? Yeah. So I came back from the US and I was like, Yeah, this academic. I don't like many things of, of this, this kind of work. Like I mean, I always like the the mystery of the human body and all the processes that go along in it. And researching that, yes. But then casting gels in a lab, and pipetting. And those kinds of things. What was really your your main activities. I wasn't a big fan. And then second writing those dry academic papers. And reading them. I mean, I was able to do it. I just, yeah, I was like, and I have a much of respect for the people that keep this academic, or Yeah, academic discourse alive with I just couldn't see it, see myself doing it. So then, then I was like, I'm going to do something else. I started studying philosophy. So I was like, I'm gonna just think about the deeper subjects of life. And I did that for a while. But yeah, this was all going on. While I was having a long distance relationship, I was like, Yeah, I want to get her here. And then so that's why I ended up on the job market. And she came over to the Netherlands to because she finished her bachelor's degree or so. And then she came over for just to be here. She did, like, become a nanny or something. So you can just live with the family and have a reason to stay longer in the Netherlands. And we were on the job market. And just seeing what kind of job I could get with the degree that I had, so that we have the IND, then you can get her to stay because she's from America, of Jeroen Leenarts: course. Yeah. Yeah, she can only get like, a tourist visa, unless she has a very meaningful reason to stay longer on the Netherlands. Right. Samuel Maljaars: Right. Right. So unless I, I got a job. So So I did that. So Donna walk on the job market that she found, or someone stopped her and said, and that was someone from Capgemini. And I just walked straight past I was like, what's that? No, I that's not interesting. And I just kept walking. And then she was like, hey, and this guy, she told this our story to this guy. He's like, Oh, maybe, maybe he's interested. And so that's how I got into it. Jeroen Leenarts: Capgemini did some training with you to get you up to spec as a tester. Samuel Maljaars: Yeah, they found out that I'm like super intelligent and have all the right skills. So they wanted to hire me very badly. And then Jeroen Leenarts: I reckon that if you if you did some fundamental research and you trained in a in a university to actually have a critical mind, then as a test engineer, I, I think you'll do fine. So that's how you ended up with Capgemini. And then just because Samuel Maljaars: you walk around on the job market, it actually can work. Like I didn't believe in that myself. But yeah, I just did it. I just gave it a shot. You know, like, why not? because like the thing with, I had a bachelor degree. And of course, I was like willing to do to get some sort of job but like I needed a job that would give me a year contract. So a year contract was one of the precondition so I could get my girlfriend to stay with me. Jeroen Leenarts: So and I think it worked out pretty well with you and Capgemini. If I'm correct, you you worked out for six or seven years. And you made your switch to an iOS development position at your first real projects. Through Capgemini. Samuel Maljaars: I first learned like the basics of testing at Capgemini. And they sent me to India to to learn that, and which was really fun. And, and then I did some internal project. And was like in some special group with people I already mentioned. Also, we were like, all about like mobile and like many nights in the week come together and figure out like everything that was going on at that. And, and so yeah, that's how I got the opportunity to do this at img. Jeroen Leenarts: You can still find our names in the code base there. Samuel Maljaars: Oh, that's that's the scope for? Is it? Or no, I remember. This was a while when I left IG, I had written all the test automation. I had already done it in a while not just me, by the way, but of course with the other people on the team. But there was like a large set of JavaScript files. And then this also an Apple decided that this was a really crappy this automation if this Java Script. So let's let's just pull it in into Xcode, and make it also in. I think it was just when When Swift came out. So let's just also just write it in Swift. And oh, and by the way, let's just like have no no support for the JavaScript anymore at all. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, the basic UI Automation transition. Yeah, I still remember that it was gone. The same happens on on the on the projects I'm working out right now, there was a big, it wasn't your automation with JavaScript, but it was some other thing with JavaScript as well. And it was giving us headaches all the time. And then at some point, we just decided, okay, let's just not run this stuff anymore, and see what happens or not nothing fell over and nothing broke. Nobody raised the red flag. So then a quarter in we casually mentioned that on the planning of the next sprint. Yeah, we should just get rid of this stuff here. It's old craft, and we're not running it anymore for like months. So let's just delete it. And then of course, the product owner was on vacation. So we got greenlighted when he got back from vacation is, yeah, all the UI automation is it's gone. We can't get it back anymore. So that that's how we got rid of a lot of JavaScript. And then we started rewriting a lot of that in, in UI automation with with Swift, which was, yeah, we took a much more pragmatic approach there, because one of the things that I learned at ING project was the value of having a good hands on test engineer, you know, you still remember Caleb, of course, yeah, he's still it's still remember how he was like, surfing on. I don't know what it was doing. But he had like, like a phone in his hand, like, non stop. And it was his finger for moving on the screen. But it was like, What is he doing? He's not even looking at the screen. But he's doing something. And he was able to find the weirdest, craziest edge cases all the time. And even if you had like, yeah, and now it's good. Now I have everything covered. He still found issues. Samuel Maljaars: Yeah, yeah, I know. It's amazing. Yeah, Jeroen Leenarts: he almost made me cry once with keeping finding issues. Very close to a deadline. So um, let's see. So you went to the Dutch roads? Surface? I don't know what what an English name is for RvB. Samuel Maljaars: Oh, triple A. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah. So you went to the Dutch version of the AAA and you worked on their app for a while and then I switched Samuel Maljaars: from ing because they were taking all the people internal. And then I went to ABN AMRO and did their one year was a really fun team. Our name was sons of automation. And so we we also there, trained people to do to do testing basically because there was literally no automated tests. So, yeah, we did that. And also set up a whole, like built Street and worked on a lot of those, those kinds of things. So we got a lot of experience there. Also, Jeroen Leenarts: just to recap things a little bit. So you worked at the ing then at ABN AMRO, and then you switch from Capgemini to clockwork. And through clockwork, you worked at the Dutch version of the AAA, and did some other projects there. And then the whole donkey mobile thing happened. Yeah. So you already mentioned that you wants to work on on Donkey mobile and at the company as well, because it's it was a small team and small new projects. And that that was one of the that were two of the reasons that you want to work on, on that product. But I reckon that there's also another reason that's very important to you, that you that made you want to work on Donkey mobile, can you can you tell a little bit about that? Samuel Maljaars: Because it was something which was close to close to me. I'm a Christian, and I like going to church and believe in God. And so this was something having to do with that. And, and so that that was like, definitely an extra motivator to Jeroen Leenarts: do this job. Okay. And is it? Is it that the doctor mobile product is it like focused on group of people to practice religion, Samuel Maljaars: it's for for all Christians, we are first active in the Netherlands. So we want to just serve that market first, then we will definitely go go abroad, Jeroen Leenarts: what's it like to work at a startup and to just know that there is some amount of money and that if certain goals are not met, then the money runs out, and then the company really dies? Samuel Maljaars: It's nothing like working at the big company, it's really hard work. So yeah, you need to be very passionate about your, your, your product, if the product needs to be perfect. So what we made needed to be really, really high quality and good user experience. So I mean, that was really a challenge just to do the programming. I really liked how that was phrased one time was that so you can let the chicken sit on the neck and wait till it comes out. And then at some point, the egg just the chick just needs to come out. So in that longer process, where you're just like trying to that then you can just like keep working, keep working like you just work. And then it gets to a point where we just need to have a release, because investors and that was last summer, we worked all summer long, just after Corona a really good opportunity to have something of course, but our product wasn't ready yet. Our founders really good that just spreading the news of what we're doing. And but yeah, we didn't have a product yet. But that really needed to be there, like in September. So we worked really hard. And we managed to go live. Jeroen Leenarts: And the company and our products right now is it has already taken flight in that it generates enough income to remain sustainable without having to find new investors. Samuel Maljaars: We're not 100% self sufficient yet, but definitely, we are taking off like we have something like 150 contracts now with churches. Yeah, it's really, really so cool. Because when you start you have no clue where we will be in a year. And then then in a year, we were still working on it. We went live last year in September. So that was like one and a half year after we started. We had a product life. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, so 18 months to two from inception to product launch. That's there are companies that that do it quicker, but I don't think you have a complete product. If you if you don't take the time and with 18 months, I think DUNKEY mobile at least from the marketing material that I was able to review before we started recording it, it seemed like it was like a complete full social media platform for churches. It seems and so and social in the sense of it's the it's socializing within the congregation of the participants of this specific church. And what I really like about the whole thing is that it seems that there were a couple of people who had a passion, of course, do passion for their religion, but also a passion to to bring that forward to other people and to create accessibility for people. In some sense, and that, and that it seems to be the it seems to be working out for donkey mobile in the sense that yeah, there's a there's a couple of, of product idiots working on it. And and they're they had an idea and it's it's it seems to be it seems to just be happening. And what's the atmosphere of one that's discussed on? Well, the online office probably at this point in time but what what's the atmosphere if you and your peers talk about the the route that you've traveled and the road that still perhaps for the product? Samuel Maljaars: He is the atmosphere I mean, we are celebrating every church that goes live. So we put multiple apps life and then every every church that goes live, we are celebrating. And so yeah, when we passed 100 churches that was like crazy. And looking back at where we came from, and then and you look forward, like, well, we'll be will we be in a year? We're just really happy for that. And I had no clue exactly how this was gonna work out. I just jumped and just went for it. Jeroen Leenarts: That's fun. Actually, what you mentioned that because I did want to touch upon one topic before closing off the wife, what was her thoughts when you said, Hey, I think I want to work for this. This crazy person that sent me an email. How did that conversation work out for you? Samuel Maljaars: Yeah, I have to get my leased car. Now. We don't have money to buy a car. Do you like it? No, no, that's a really good question. She was really supportive. So I mean, I was doubting to do it. And but, but then I was like, You know what, I'm just, I'm going to do it. And if you if you agree with this, then let's do it. And the founder of the Tonka mobile just also came to our house. And we talked him, and I was a good story. It was, it was not something that, you know, I needed to do voluntarily or something. So he was offering a real job. And he found the real investors who was backing his plan. So sorry, I didn't want to say no. And I couldn't say no, this was just something I had wanted, for such a long time. So I felt like God was also just providing this. Yeah. So it's with all the things that have happened then well, they said, like, like crazy, crazy journey or so. But yeah, you can say like, Guys, it's a it's coincidences, this happened. This happened. Yeah, I don't believe in that. So it's just, it's just a story. Like so many life stories, I'm just thankful for them. Jeroen Leenarts: And now that from the the interaction that the two of us had, that you're one of those people that don't think things happen without a reason, because of your religion, that there is something out there that has planned for you. I'm not a religious person, myself, but every time that I talk to you, and we talk a little bit more in depth on what drives you, and what motivates you to do the things that you that you do. It is it is a very compelling story. I think, whatever your faith is, I think your story is a very inspirational one that you should just follow the things that you believe in and make sure that you try to make some good decisions along the way and, and then yeah, if you if you put in the work, then most likely things have a good likelihood of working out for you. That's Samuel Maljaars: nice. It's to say that the people that you come across with if you are willing to coalition, to work together to really pursue what you are passionate about. Then wonderful things can happen.