Dominic Williams, creator of Moderation app

Jeroen Leenarts: Hi, and welcome to another special edition of my podcast. I'm sitting here with Dominic, Dominic Williams to be exactly. He's from Wales. And he got into software development at an early age. And now he's doing something with iOS as well. You might know him from his app moderation. So definitely have a look at that one. And we'll just dig a little bit into the backstory of Dominic, and how we got to launching his own products and how he got to where he is right now. So Dominic, Hi, how are you doing today? Dominic Williams: Hi, I'm good. Thanks. How are you? Jeroen Leenarts: So as I mentioned, you got into computers, when you were young? Can you tell a little bit about the first computer that you got your hands on? Dominic Williams: Yeah, so I was around 13. And the first time I used the computer, or at least the time I can remember was in sort of secondary school in in the UK. And it was a Windows 95 machine. And I remember going on Internet Explorer, and being kind of amazed by just typing in URLs and seeing pages load. And I guess I must have told my mum about this experience and how excited I was. Because, yeah, she managed to get me a sort of a PC, I think later that year for Christmas. And for those who remember, it was a Windows ME, so Millennium edition computer, which was I think, the most crashy, buggy version of Windows that ever shipped. By loved it nonetheless. And yeah, I mean, as soon as I had that computer, I was basically on it all the time, you know, after school every day, all over the weekend. And I just started exploring, really in terms of you know, what could it do. And before long I, you know, I ended up in, in the world of HTML, and then eventually PHP, and, you know, Visual Basic and sort of just started teaching myself how to program and you know, I've never really stopped and I've always been tinkering around with computers. So yeah, so that's how I started really on my first computer. Jeroen Leenarts: Because one of the things that is quite interesting on your profile, is that you do a lot of software development, a lot of computer related work, but all the things that you know about software development are self thought, if I'm correct. And the formal education that you did was not in the field of computer science, correct? Dominic Williams: Yes, right. Yeah. So it was maybe a little bit arrogant of me. But when I came to choosing what to do at university, I already felt pretty good at sort of, you know, computers and programming, and I wasn't sure how much value I would get out of a degree in programming. And I had a bad experience in in school before then. So the year before, we used to learn, I think it was Delphi, maybe, but they were learning in a real programming language. And then they changed the course, for my, my year of my class. And basically, we were doing stuff in, I think it was Microsoft Publisher. So instead of doing programming, we were making a yearbook. And we were doing, like, drag and drop. And it was, it was very interesting to me. So I worried that going to university might be equally as, as boring, really. So I ended up doing a business management degree, because I really enjoyed learning about business and finance and strategy and marketing. I don't regret my decision, I think, I think it made me more rounded because I, you know, I continue to, you know, teach myself programming and stuff. And while I'm, I missed out on, you know, some of the complexities of computer science, you know, like binary trees and algorithms and all this stuff I see mentioned that I don't really understand, you know, my experiences, you don't really need to know all of that stuff to, to get by. And I suppose if I ever do come across the need to learn, you know, some of that stuff in more detail. There's plenty of resources out there to learn. And that's kind of how I've got by really. Jeroen Leenarts: And so you didn't regret going into sort of basically Business School. And but you also, before you got into your formal education, you already did some stuff on the side, if I'm correct. So you mentioned in writing that you also did some PHP development and basically some small work for friends, family, small businesses, maybe. And how did you venture into that? Actually, yeah, Dominic Williams: I think it's probably a common story for, you know, for programmers, where, you know, you start showing your friends you start showing your family what you can do, you know, stuff you've made, and then you know, before you know it, they're asking you to make a website or make an app. So I started doing If a friend so I made a, a website for like a local cleaning company just like a one person cleaning company. And then I started charging people for it. But to be honest, I was charging very little, you know, massively underselling myself, I was just quite excited to be getting paid to do, you know, something I enjoyed as a hobby. But then before long, you know, the maintenance of those websites. And, you know, some of the work coming in wasn't really that appealing to me. And I started getting busier with my day job, and I decided I didn't really like making stuff for other people. So I, you know, I kind of stopped doing the freelance work, really. So it never really took off. It was mainly just for friends or referrals, you know, and I just did a few things on the side. Jeroen Leenarts: So you did a little bit of, basically contract work for your own small circle. But after your education, how did you get started, then? Because you're still in software development in some capacity, even nowadays, even without a formal education? So how did those things happen? Dominic Williams: Yeah, when I finished university, it was 2008. So it was the financial crisis. So my actual plan was to go in and get a graduate job with IBM. And I found that quite appealing the graduate scheme was was really interesting. And I got through a few stages of the application process, but then they kind of pulled all of the the jobs because, you know, obviously, of the crisis. So I ended up just applying for random jobs. And the job I ended up getting was for a really big insurance company in the UK. And it was to do with data analysis, analysis. So basically, you know, writing queries and getting data from databases, turning that into reports, and generating information really, so the business can make decisions. So that was a lot of SQL. And, you know, my previous sort of experience really have tinkered around with PHP, and MySQL, and so on, kind of paid dividends, and I was able to hit the ground running. And I still work in, in that space now in this sort of data space, really, for the same company. So it's been 11 years. But, you know, do more of a leadership role now. So I look after the team of people who, you know, build those types of reports, and is still heavily code, you know, it's not quite programming, it's more scripting, I guess, you know, write in a script or pull data, transform that data, that sort of stuff. But then I'm also a product lead for the data warehouse team that we have. So I help sort of transform business requirements. So what information do they need, and I'll, you know, transform that to, to technical requirements. So that team, in terms of you know, how they need to build that sort of data so we can get the information? Jeroen Leenarts: So your current day to day job? Is it then are you still like involved with with coding or software development? Or is it more the activities around that field, Dominic Williams: very little day to day coding anymore. So probably over the last 18 months, it's kind of gone to zero, as I picked up extra responsibilities. So it's a bit of a shame, because I really enjoy the you know, headphones on just doing some code by yourself. But you know, on the flip side, I do really enjoy the the challenges that come with, you know, management, leadership, you know, getting people bought into a vision. And that's kind of where my, you know, my business of, you know, education and an interest because I do read a lot of books about business management, and entrepreneurship, and all of those things, as well as being you know, really interested in the technical details of stuff. So, yeah, I kind of get the best of both worlds really an NA, I scratch my programming niche, I guess, in the evenings when I when I get into Swift. Jeroen Leenarts: So how do you manage like, doing the programming on the side, next to a day job and like, still have energy? Well, of course, at the end of the, it's okay to be spent. But to be able to get up every day and be energized and ready for today's challenges? Because it's a lot doing side hustles next to a business really? Sorry, yes to a job. Dominic Williams: Yeah, I find it really difficult. But then I also look at people you know, who have kids and I don't have any kids at the moment. And I just almost admire people who are able to juggle all of these things and you know, deliver crates and develop products and apps in their spare time. So I feel like I don't have enough to complain about because I do have way more free time than most people. But it is the you know, the biggest challenge I have and you know, I'm sure we'll talk a bit about moderation later, but it's been sort of five years in the making to get rid of it isn't the only way I've gotten that far is by just being persistent. So there'll be sometimes months where I don't touch it. And then I'll have a flurry of activity where I'm really engaged and don't see my friends or you know, a family for a while, do a lot of work, and then kind of go through that process. But it's been more difficult the last sort of 18 months really, because, you know, with a pandemic, I've been on more video calls. Yeah, and I find them a lot more draining. So after, you know, eight hours of video calls, I don't really want to do anything, let alone program, I just want to sit on the on the sofa and watch TV, but you want to switch off really? Yeah, yes, it's a bit, it's a bit different to when you know, is in an office and you got to walk around a bit more and go outside and you know, go out for lunch, I think I had more energy then after work. So it's been more of a challenge. But on the flip side, I haven't got a commute anymore. So I tend to get up a bit earlier. And I have some time in the morning where I can kind of do an hour, an hour and a half sort of, you know, on the app as well. So just been adjusted really? Jeroen Leenarts: So would you say that, as you mentioned, moderation, is the challenge for you? Is it that moderation you mean that the side hustling so to speak, is something that you do in leaps and bounds and that you wish for yourself to be able to do that at a at a more sustainable and more sustainable pace so that you could do smaller things more frequently? Dominic Williams: Yeah, I think so. You know, I was referring to the app itself, actually. But I think the same applies, I do tend to be in fits and starts really. And there's a theory that I read about, I can't remember the name, but maybe I'll get the link for the for the show notes, which is called the the four burners theory. So the concept is you have four burners, I think, you know, one of them's family, one of them sort of friends health. And there's another one check out, remember, but the idea is it's like a like a four burners of an oven, and you can't have them all on at once. You can only ever really have two on full or you can have four on simmer. And I kind of subscribe to that theory. And I tend to have you know, two of those things on the go at any one time. And then I'll you know, maybe my health will suffer, I'll stop exercising. So it's not it's not a good way of working, I don't think but it seems to be how I work for whatever reason, I tend to get quite sort of, I tend to get quite engaged in what I'm doing and then become almost a little bit obsessed. And then then I'll move on to something else for a while. Jeroen Leenarts: What we haven't discussed yet is because you've been working at your day job for 11 years. You're also active as an iOS developer. At what point did you get into iOS development? Because it's not something that you got from your formal education, not from your day job. So how did that happen? Where did you grow the interest and the opportunity to actually get started with this? Dominic Williams: Yeah, so I'm sure we all have the memory of the iPhone being sort of announced that that you know, kind of famous conference and I remember being really sort of amazed by a the way Steve Jobs pitched it, Jeroen Leenarts: but that's the it's a it's a phone, it's an iPod, and it's an internet communicator. That's the one right. Dominic Williams: Are you getting it yet? Yeah, yeah, that's the one. It was it was great. And I like to rewatch it every once in a while, just because it was such a really good pitch. But that was really exciting. But I didn't get the original iPhone, I think I got the iPhone 3g was my first one. And again, I remember just holding in my hand and watching YouTube videos on this device and just feeling the potential. So I think I pretty soon after that, bought a book to start learning, and it was a Sam's Teach Yourself iOS in 24 hours. Jeroen Leenarts: That's what's a big yellow letters and rats mostly cover, right? Dominic Williams: I think so. Yeah, it was a long time ago. But you know, I think it was a bit optimistic. In 24 hours, it was 24 chapters in the book. But it was quite nicely structured. So it had like, you know, a chapter on colocation, and things like that. So you could jump around to the chapters you're interested in, in whatever app you're trying to build. So I started going through that book, and I made my first app, which was called rugby on TV. So you know, rugby is a sport is pretty popular in Wales, as you know, our national sports. Not too dissimilar to American football in terms of an oval shaped ball, but other than that, probably no similarities. Jeroen Leenarts: I think the biggest difference is that with American football, you're allowed to throw the ball forward. And if you do that in rugby, it's foul. Yes, that's right. That's a significant one. And so your relation with rugby is it purely as a spectator or also in another fashion, Dominic Williams: purely as a spectator? Yeah, I never really got into I played football when I was younger, or soccer for any American listeners. But by the time I figured out, I liked rugby, I was probably 1314 15. And that's when I was watching lots of rugby. I'd kind of given up on sport at that point and was more just on computers, you know, and doing that in my free time. So, and then I feel I'm probably too old now to play it. It's quite a physical sport, and I'm not sure my body would, would hold up to it. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, they will probably break you in half, like a scrum, right? Pretty much. Yeah. So yeah, so you create an app for rugby? What was the app about? Dominic Williams: Yeah, basically, the shows, all of the rugby games that were on any TV channels in the UK, so is, I think, you know, these websites still exist now. Like, where's the match, and you can just kind of get what sport is on TV. But I wanted one dedicated to rugby. And then if I could kind of customize the experience a bit more. So you know, it had, like, the team's logos, and it was a little bit customized. But it didn't do a lot. It was just, you know, pulling some data and show it in a table view, effectively. And I think maybe had some notifications, you know, for when, when the game to do a start? And so on. Jeroen Leenarts: So and where did you? Where did you get the content for this app? Dominic Williams: I was scraping some websites, basically to get it so and then doing some manual edits to myself. So sometimes it was wrong, and so on. So I was kind of manually editing some of this data via like an admin panel. But But yeah, I was mainly scraping it from other websites kind of stuffs in the app. Jeroen Leenarts: So but that's probably quite time intensive to actually keep updated. Right? Dominic Williams: Yeah. And that was one of the reasons why you know, that apps no longer around, you know, it was always missing matches. And I kind of lost interest in rugby for a few years. And so I wasn't as motivated to keep it updated in terms of the content. And then, at some point, I just felt it was better to just pull it from the store. Jeroen Leenarts: So So you went into a sort of an iOS development low or what happens here? Because it sounds that you were busy with other things when you pulled the app. Yeah, Dominic Williams: yeah. So I released the app, and maybe a year or two later, I kind of stopped updating it. And it's hard to remember exactly, it's I can't believe I stopped making iOS apps. And I wish I didn't, because I think it'd be a lot further along now. But the best I can remember really is that, you know, life just got in the way really that I was starting to progress in my job. So you know, I was quite excited there. Just doing a lot more other things, just with friends and things like that. And just priorities changed, really. And I think I was just enjoying life. And then at some point, you know, the idea for my most recent app came into my head and kind of spurred me on really to, to get back into it. Jeroen Leenarts: So and because back in the day, with the iPhone 3g and stuff that it was Objective C? And nowadays, it's Swift. So so how does Objective C and Swift compare for you? What's your preference? Or what? What What are your thoughts on the two languages? Dominic Williams: Yeah, I really struggled with Objective C, I mean, just those brackets, I just couldn't, I could never get over it. So I managed to learn enough to be dangerous. You know, I managed to get things working. But I never really fully grasp, you know, what was going on? I don't think I remember, I think, an OB Yeah, I think I bought an objective C book as well, that was very, very difficult to read. And then I remember when Swift was announced, they were showing some slides on stage of, you know, here's some some code to do some simple things. And here's the Swift equivalent. And not only did it read a lot simpler to me, you know, just read like English, which was much, much more favorable. It was just much less code, so much less typing, and just made much more sense to me. So I think that was one of the big reasons why I did get back into iOS development was, you know, I was quite excited by Swift. I remember using Swift from, you know, from day one really playing around with it, having to go through the some of the painful sort of API changes along the way as well. But Jeroen Leenarts: yeah, I'm one of these strange people that actually, I still really like reading Objective C, because I don't know for some reason because it's so it's so verbose. It's, it's, it's, it requires less thinking to actually parse what's going on on the screen. But when writing it I do prefer swift because it's a lot less typing, even though code completion and stuff really helps a lot. With both Objective C and Swift, so yeah, Swift was something that you preferred over Objective C. was was swift. Also one of the reasons that you got back into iOS development more again. Dominic Williams: Yeah, I was just really, really excited by it. I should really watch the the introduction, relax, I just remember being really, really excited, really impressed. And just the syntax, you know, those, I can't get over those, those brackets in Objective C and like the Add symbol. And and I haven't written a single line of Objective C, since that first app Jeroen Leenarts: that don't forget the splitting of the interface and the implementation over two files. That's also a big one for a lot of people. I forgotten about that. No, you didn't forget about you just like you suppressed it. Yeah, that's probably a better description. So um, said you had an app ID. So that's the moderation app. What is the moderation app about actually, Dominic Williams: so moderation is a radically simple food diary. So it kind of it was born from my frustrations with traditional calorie counting apps like My Fitness Pal, which, you know, kind of goes back to the four burners I was talking about, I tend to be up and down with my my diet and my health, my fitness. And one of those things is, you know, every once in a while, I kind of stopped calorie counting and start trying to really improve my diet, but I would never really stick to it. And I found the apps quite cumbersome to use and the sort of very easy to give up on. So I wanted to make, you know, the world's most simple food diary app, which basically just tracks is what I'm eating healthy or unhealthy. And that definition basically comes from from me. So if I'm, you know, try not to eat carbs, then if I have a sandwich on my class that is unhealthy, because bread is quite high in, in carbs. But for someone else, they may Class A sandwich as healthy, but you know, a McDonald's as unhealthy as an example. So the idea is you just be consistent in what you consider healthy and unhealthy. You can track your progress over time. And because it's much lower friction, then, you know, you stick with the app for much longer. So I've been logging my food on it for, you know, rather than nearly three years, I guess. Jeroen Leenarts: So you mentioned three years that you've been logging your food, but the app itself? How long did it take to actually develop the product? Dominic Williams: Yeah, I was quite surprised, as reflected on this the other day, and I found a screenshot from 2016. And if you'd asked me before, I saw that, I would have said I'd been working on it for maybe three years. But it turns out, it's more like five years, when I had the initial idea, and sort of did some mock ups in Sketch. It's hard to piece back exactly when I did what, but I know I released the first version to the App Store in October 2018. And I think I had it running, you know, in a in a little private beta for a good while before then, but I was almost embarrassed to release it. It was so little in functionality that it was just pressing healthy, unhealthy. You know, so our first version was very, very simple. But then I've been working on a sense to add more functionality. Jeroen Leenarts: And it is an app that has a subscription model FM correct. So how's that been working out for you to have like a monetization option in your in your app? Because I reckon that when you introduced that people might have had some thoughts on that as well. Dominic Williams: Yeah, so the latest version of the app introduced their subscription model. So that was released in the middle of April. And yeah, it was a little bit apprehensive, I think. But, you know, I also feel like some of the features behind a paywall to add value for people who want that extra functionality. But yeah, I've largely had a good response. So the main sort of feedback or negative feedback would be that people like or would like an option for a lifetime unlock, which I currently don't offer. I may offer that in the future. I think for now, I'm just trying to understand, you know, at what level do I need to price this? What is the appetite for people subscribing, so I'm just trying to get some baseline numbers for the next few months to understand that. But I think the the sort of performance of that subscription model is kind of impressed me and exceeded my expectations. So I had very low expectations anyway. But yeah, it's been it's been pretty good so far. Jeroen Leenarts: So as a as a thing that you're doing on the site, it's been very worthwhile to actually add monetization to to the product that you create it. Yeah, I Dominic Williams: mean, I hate to think of how many hours I've spent making the app and you know, and if I had now the hourly rate, how much it would cost, but and also for this most recent version is a hired some designers to make some app icons, and, you know, so I spent a decent amount of money, you know, just my own, at my own pay really to, to get it where it is. And I think I've probably recouped a lot of that. So far, you know, definitely paid for my annual Apple sort of developer subscription. So, but you know, I'm, I'm not really doing it to make loads of money. I think it is a hobby at this point in time. But I'm doing it more of a challenge to Can I make it a successful product, where it can, you know, grow and, and actually not require me to fund it effectively. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay, so. So what are your plans with the product at the moment? Because you have it available on the store, this basic feature set that you need is in there? Are there any future development plans? Or are you considering adding more value to people who are f&e active subscription on the product? Dominic Williams: Yeah, I've got a long list of features I want to add. And I've had quite a lot of feedback for the recent release, which has been really good. And it's kind of confirmed a lot of the features that I thought would be, you know, the next ones to work on. So some, some obvious ones, like an Apple Watch app, tracking your water and alcohol intake alongside your food, tracking your weight within the app and seeing that correlates, how that correlates as well. So yeah, there's plenty of work still to do, I think to to add more value for people who are subscribing and those who aren't as well, because a lot of the features, I do want to make three. So if it's about simply log in and tracking your food, then I think that's, you know, should be three and then any additional sort of analysis or insights you want to generate from that. So one of the options is to be able to tag tagging meals with extra details. So you may target as who did you eat it with? Or where did you eat it? Or was it a takeaway? And then the app surfaces some insights around that. So plenty to add. Jeroen Leenarts: I can imagine. So, is there any backend involved with the moderation app? Dominic Williams: No, it's all on device. And that was a conscious decision. So I wanted to be quite heavily privacy focused. So you know, there's there's no account creation, there's no email address collected. The only sort of tracking, if you will, is is basically anonymized analytics. So you know, what features are being used and so on. So a big, big part of that was I don't I don't want your data. I don't need your data, keep it all on device. But you know, one of the considerations for the future is, do I use iCloud. So currently, the back end or the database, Robert is powered by core data. And, you know, I think last year, they introduced quite a lot of functionality of core data for iCloud. And I'm hoping for for more of that in this year's WWDC. So, you know, it can convince me to turn that feature on and maybe work on the watch app. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah. So that you can do the the syncing over iCloud and then have the data available on all the end users devices. So yeah, with moderation seems like you have something that is like a small project that you keep on working on. And that really has struck a nerve with you in a good way. And the subscription is something that since April, could you say that it's has been a big motivator for you to actually get feedback due to this change? Or what was it like? Because you said you were apprehensive on introducing the subscription feature. And also, you indicated that you were pleasantly surprised with the effect that it had on the on the product and how people perceive the product. So So what are your thoughts on that? Yeah, Dominic Williams: I mean, there's a few things to pick apart there. I think one of the things I was apprehensive about was price. And I guess would people even pay for an app that is almost so simple, but similar to some of the Apple products is sometimes harder to make something really simple that is to make a really complex application. So but it was an untested theory really, if people would pay money for something that on the surface is very simple and maybe they thought that you know wasn't worthwhile paying for and I sort of set the price higher than I felt comfortable with. Because you know, a lot of the stuff you've read or you know, podcasts you listen to whatever price you think it is kind of add a bit more on and people will probably still pay that and I kind of went with that approach. And that made me really nervous because I thought nobody in the world is going to pay for this. But actually you know quite a few people have quite a few people have renewed as well. So the for the first month which is exciting. And in terms Motivation. Yeah, I mean, it's helped validate the idea, which I knew had potential anyway, because I've had good feedback, you know, for the, for the various launches that I've done over the years for different versions. But it's helped validate that people are willing to pay for this simplicity as well. And now, now, I feel sort of motivated and that I should really now continue working on it and add features that people are asking for, you know, my loyal kind of customers, if you will, that they want, it's kind of helped help sort of motivate me to do that. Jeroen Leenarts: Now, because that's one of the things that I heard before from people who are actually working on a product. And that it's actually it's actually their their main income. And that one, once they switched from a pay upfront model to a subscription model that they really were able to really relax on their on their feature roadmap, because they could now focus on building things that their existing customer base likes. So that retention is way more important than having big feature splashes every now and then. So with the moderation app, you've you've had a taste of being your own product creator, and having some success. So with that. So what are your thoughts on on the future, because you've been in the corporate world for quite a time already, after you graduated. But you also have like this, this project, this product, I should say, that has some success at the moment, and that you might be able to build upon. Dominic Williams: Yeah, I mean, I'm really fortunate to have a job that sort of pays me well and uncomfortable. And you know, during the pandemic, I was never worried about losing my job as an example. But you know, part of me really does want to be an entrepreneur, you know, I want to work for myself, I want my own business. And, you know, I love coding, I love making apps. So I think it would be great if I could transition into the sort of indie dev lifestyle. I think the biggest sort of consideration for me is like, when do you do that? At what point? Do I need a certain amount of monthly recurring revenue? And I've sort of thought about these questions. You know, do I need to have six months with a salary sort of in the bank? You know, as a little bit of runway? And I don't have the answer, I think I do think about it from time to time. I think monetizing on moderation was a big step, understanding, you know, how that works, and how I can optimize that. So I think over the next six months, trying to grow that and see if I can grow, that, I think would be a big indicator of if I can kind of move away from my day job. But yeah, I mean, do you have any sort of advice on considering when to do this? Jeroen Leenarts: Oh, I'm hearing different stories on that from different people. Because for instance, what is important, of course, is that you have like a livelihood, so that you can like, sustain yourself and enjoy the lifestyle that you're living. But I also think that it is the drawback of having a well paying position at a company is that it is it's a very safe place. And it's also what is the what is the what is the path that you can take from the safe place into the new place that you want to be? problem there is that if you if you just jump ship, and then fail? What do you do then? So I think that's one of the things that you have to consider next to being able to provide you with a timeline. That is, so I added a timeline of financially because what you hear a lot is that people take different routes. One of the ways that people switch from a salary job to a more entrepreneurial lifestyle, is to just save up a number of months, and then basically make the move, because then of course, it's one of the quickest routes, because yeah, of course, you have to produce something within the given timeframe that you've set for yourself. But then the drawback is, of course, that the pressure is really on. And another approach that's more slow going is that people they have a product and they keep building on the product and at some point, their product has starts to like, get an even income level compared to their normal work. And then they then they make the move at that point in time because that's, of course a very safe bet to take but it's also a long bet to take And, yeah, one other thing that I've heard people do is that they have a day job, they just take a sabbatical. So that's basically an unpaid leave, and do the same thing with a number of months based on their savings. Because then, of course, you are still tied to any non compete got non competes or NDA restrictions that you have with your day job. But well, maybe in a specific case, it'll work out because the stuff that you're working on in your den spare time, which is significant, because it's full time, then, because it's non competing, then it's not a problem. But that's very specific to each individual's case. And yeah, another option is to that's also depends on your on your day job, because I don't know how it is in the UK, but in the Netherlands, it's possible to, to reduce your contracted hours, and then just have like, a part time job and a part time and entrepreneurial gig really. And yeah, but the thing that you really need to focus on is indeed, whether or not you can be successful and in what time span you can be successful and whether or not you can sustain yourself till up until you are successful. Because, yeah, that's the problem because you don't want to live in a cardboard box. You don't need to live in a mansion, of course. So yeah, it's, it's, it's very specific to each individual's case, I think, because I myself, I also work at a big insurance company. And, and I, I really do some things on the side, like my podcast. But I don't have any aspirations at the moment to really venture out on my own with like, that. I'm like, the sole proprietor of my business and my income. Because in my case, I do have a family. I do have two kids, I do have a mortgage. And, yeah, those things, they, they matter to me. And I need to make sure that that I can provide for my kids as well. So that's a bit of a different position that that I will be starting on. What I do know is that if I look at my personal life, I in hindsight, I don't have any regrets. But I do wish that when I was younger, that I would have taken more chances every now and then. So that I because if you're still young, you're Unbound, you don't have any, any dependents, then yeah, of course, you can take a little bit more risk compared to if you're in the position that I'm at currently. And of course, always do things that don't like kill your financial security. As a tech worker, you have the advantage that you can always find a new position. Question is, can you find a position that has an equal pay, so as to what you're currently doing? And if that's a risk that you're willing to take? And there's no dependents, then what's the risk of of taking a leap? And then if it doesn't work out, pick up another job again. But this is not like sound financial advice, according to a lot of people. So please do make up your own mind and decide for yourself what's best, of course, Dominic Williams: yeah, I think, make a lot of good points there. And the company I work for actually is fairly flexible in terms of, you know, reducing my hours, or they do offer like a sabbatical that I haven't used. So I think, you know, I could potentially have six months off where I'm not paid, but at least if I am not successful in my endeavors, I got a job to go back to. Yeah. And, yeah, I mean, the point you make there about staying in one place too long. So you know, I listened to the, the interview you did, or I guess when you were interviewed on your own podcast, on that episode, and, yeah, that's stuck with me. And it is it something I've thought about quite a few times, because 11 years is a long time, for one place. And the company I work for, people tend to stay there for a long time for various reasons. It's a really good company to work for. And so it's the sort of thing where I'm either there forever, or I need to go sooner rather than later, I think to to make that change. But getting a job somewhere else doesn't really interest me. So I think it would have to be, you know, trying to work for myself. And I think the other thing that you didn't mention was obviously the the idea that you could do some contracting on the side to support which I fought a little bit about, but maybe a little bit of imposter syndrome in terms of how good I am. I guess that making apps and so on. I think you know, that feels a little bit more more nervy for me. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, I do hear very different opinions on that because Some people, they love contracting, because then it's really their work that is being appreciated. Other people, they, they really hate it because it's, it's you're really directly tied to your income based on how you perform. And of course, everybody wants to do a good job. But there's always the the bad contract that you can run into, so to speak. And, for instance, I spoke with somebody, like just before we started recording, and his opinion was that he just did not like working on other people's products. So he, he really preferred working on his own products. And if Yeah, that's it's very personal. But that that's really something that is, it's so impactful, because of course, if you're on your own, you can always try and catch a contract. But in what sense is going from contract to contract, different than having a paid position at a company? Of course, yeah, that that's something that's very different for each individual. But I do think that doing contracts can be very beneficial. But you also run more risks, because you're, of course tied with your income to having a contract or not. So it's very hard to say what's best. And that's very personal, I think. Dominic Williams: Yeah, I think the other thing I think about is, how likely is it to be successful. So, you know, there's some obvious success stories, like, you know, you see, like, Krisztian, with slopes as an example of people who managed to make it independent, but how likely is it to have the next slopes app? And do we only hear about the success stories? You know, how many failures have been we haven't heard about? And I think that's, you know, I'm not sure there's, there's good information out there really on that, at least I haven't seen it. So Jeroen Leenarts: I think, I think that it's really the runway, the runaway success is, of course, what everybody hears about. But I do love the 1000 fans or followers principle, because that basically is about basically, anybody can be successful as an individual with a product or a service or anything, if they can find like 1000 true fans, followers, so people that keep on coming back. And in the in the App Store model, it's very simple, really, because if you have 1000 subscribers to your product, of course, there will be churn involved. But if you can stay at 1000 subscribers on your products, and us and say you have like, I don't know, five euros or five pounds each month for each subscription, then if you add those numbers up, then you already have like, somewhat meaningful income each month, depending of course, where you live, because I reckon that, that 5k gets you a lot further if you're not living in the London area, for example. And yeah, and that's also what you hear a lot that people who do go into a product or thing that is more internet based, that they on purpose move themselves out of the the high failure real estate areas, so that they have like, the threshold of that you need to reach to be sustainable is lower compared to if you would be living in the big city, so to speak. Dominic Williams: Yeah, I really like the the 1000 fans sort of way of looking at stuff. I think that's a really good and motivating way because it you know, it feels like it's in within reach. So I think that's a good way of thinking about things. Jeroen Leenarts: Cool. Um, so what is in store for you then Dominic? Dominic Williams: Yeah, so I think you know, for the next few months, really, I'm taking a little bit easy and doing some decorating around the house painting, having a break for moderation. And seeing what WWDC offers really. And then off the back of that I'm gonna come up with the a feature roadmap for the rest of the year. You know, maybe there's some new functionality of the new API's that I can take advantage of. And, you know, just try and grow the numbers of number of subscribers really. And then probably reassess at the end of the year. January is usually usually a big month for these types of fitness apps. So I think after Jan, I think I'll see where I am and then maybe work on a new app. I have, as most of us do, you know, an apple notes, full of ideas of app ideas, which is very hard to resist sometimes when you just need to be consistent in one app, I guess, is what I've really tried to focus on. But, you know, there's an opportunity there as well to maybe do some of our apps. Cool. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, I'm really looking forward to any ideas that you that you might have in the future. And do let me know if there's anything that you are going to put out in testflight or actually in production. Because it's always, it's always cool to learn about new things that people are trying and see how they are the workouts and what worked and what didn't work. And yeah, with that, Dominic, I think it's, it's about time that we start wrapping up, because it's, it's already approaching 11 Here in my place. And how can people find you online? Dominic Williams: You can find me on Twitter, Dom z, so as to Zed y. And you can find moderation on the App Store to search for moderation food diary. Jeroen Leenarts: I think you also have a landing page of moderation dot app. Dominic Williams: Right? Yeah, moderation dot app will show you some nice screenshots that you need to be convinced before you go to the App Store. Jeroen Leenarts: Cool. Well, Dominic, thanks for your time, and it was great talking to you. And let's see if we can talk again in the future. Dominic Williams: Cool. Thanks for having me.