Twitter space about a lot of NON iOS things

Jeroen Leenarts: It's interesting like trying to get a high quality recording next to the Twitter space or audio recording. At least that's what you're trying to get set up right now. So this is also one of those things that's like, not iOS development related. But that's nonetheless the fun thing to figure out. So yeah, just to get things started, I guess. First of all, hi, welcome, everybody to the Twitter space of this week, it's the fun of me, the topic of today is anything not iOS stuff related. So pretty much anything goes. If you have any questions during your space, feel free to ask them participate, make sure that you request access to the microphone if you want to share something. And we basically have a list of topics with things that we in some way have an interest about. And we're just gonna basically do an AMA style session with each other, and hopefully some participants, and just see where we end up. So yeah, just to get things started, Stefan, how was your day thus far? Stefan Blos: My day has been pretty good. So far, I can't complain. It's has been, I had a nice run of focus time in the morning, which is always a very big plus to have, like compared to other days where meetings are happening. So it's been very nice. What about you? Jeroen Leenarts: Basically trying to get on top of I don't know, any number of projects, I think, I think there's like four or five things going on at the same time. And we're planning ahead for like, some in person events that we will have later this month, and especially next month, because it's going to be a very busy, busy month of June. So yeah, basically, yeah, we're just working on getting through that and making sure that we get everything planned out all the travel itineraries sorted, and also keep the day to day work going. And that's the challenging part. Because, as you mentioned, meetings, getting messages to people and responding to messages and just getting some technical work done. That's, that's a bit of a challenge thus far this week. So but we're getting there. Stefan Blos: I love the part of having like, three, four or more projects at the same time. That's like the, the Deaf lifestyle, right. Jeroen Leenarts: It's sometimes it's a bit much, but we'll get through it. And then next month, we have like a whole slew of other topics that we want to cover and work on. I Stefan Blos: mean, you mean that the month adaptiq disease happening is going to be stressful? Really. Jeroen Leenarts: It's not going to be stressful? It's just going to be a whole lot of fun, right? Yeah, that's true. That's true. So I and I'm working on something interesting as well, a bit of bit of server side Swift, which I'm not going to share too much about just yet. But yeah, that's gonna be fun as well. But yeah, let's just dive in. What's one of the topics that we should cover? Like, just to get started, because besides iOS developers, and our day jobs at stream, we also do a whole bunch of other things. And we have a whole bunch of other interests, I guess. So what's your biggest interest? Besides iOS developments? What do you spend some time on besides your day job? Or maybe it's related to your work, but let's get started. Stefan Blos: Okay, so the of course, there are a lot of answers here. I mean, it's just like, I can't say the most important thing, because that could be like, probably be family. But like, I want to start off with a little bit, something more closely related to development still. And I want to bring up the point of web development, because it's something I really like, I might be, I might be on a lonely out there, from the IRS perspective, because my gut feeling is that a lot of people from the IRS community are not that huge fans of things like JavaScript and CSS. I mean, that's, of course, like a very, very broad statement to make and very wrong, probably. But like, I really like that I've been working working as a web developer before, and I've really enjoyed it. It's a very big community with a lot of things to learn. But one thing I'm really passionate about, and I really like to do is actually CSS. And that's that's even even a smaller portion of of your Android developers, I think. But I think it's really, really fun, right? Jeroen Leenarts: What do you think about web development? Because occasionally I get to touch like a, a web site related code base, you know, it's like Gatsby sites or something, which involves some sort of JavaScript package management and stuff. And what always gets me when I touch one of those code bases like you have to do the initial setup, right? So you have to run some terminal commands or something in your editor of choice to get things going. And what always surprises me is just the sheer amount of stuff that gets downloaded as packages before you can get started. It's like, it's like the whole, the whole inventory and the kitchen sink that gets downloaded before we can get started and run it locally with web development. And that's always something that yeah, I find that a bit. I should have put this, I find that a bit worrisome. So there's so much stuff, there's so much moving parts that I have no clue on what's what and what does what. But in the end, it just works. And I'm like, Yes. Should I should I try to understand what's going on here? Or should I dig into it into into all these dependencies? And I've been told that some of these dependencies are literally just a package with like, I don't know, 10 lines of code. So that that's always what gets me with web development, really. And then there's all the browser compatibility, but I'm told that that's way less compared to a few years ago. Stefan Blos: Oh, yeah, it's catching up quite nicely. But yeah, I agree like these these dependency things. Like we had a, we had a Twitter space a few weeks ago, I think, where we were talking about third party dependencies. And like, the question seems, or the answer to this question, like, should we should we integrate third party code in web development is basically yes. In most cases, yeah. Let's, let's just put those some more packages in but I agree, like the, the entire process of building and everything is really getting out of hand there. So it's like, or not all the time. But it's, it's really hard to follow everything there. And that's why I like something like CSS, because it's like, it's a very constrained rule set. And if you manage to understand that, it's very possible to basically do anything you want to do with it. So that's pretty cool, I think. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, because there's a whole bunch of things that you can do with just stylesheets. Right? So just add some styling, add some events to your style sheets, and then get really crazy things going on screen. But I heard that you did something with CSS battles or something? Or what was that about? Is that like, instead like actual event, or is it like more stuff that you're trying to do in CSS, and that it's a whole battle to get it like working the way you want it to? Stefan Blos: So CSS better, there's a webpage, actually, I saw that from some YouTubers who played that. And what it is, is, you basically get a layout, so you get a set of things you will need to do, basically, or find a layout, that you can present it and you need to implement that in as few lines as few characters as possible. And what we did at my previous job, but like we had like our our meetings, and we would play that and see like, who would be the fastest to manage to copy that layout, basically, with as few characters as possible. So that was a fun little thing to do like to do some competitive layouting. And I think it would also be pretty funny to do in the IRS community, because like, for example, also you I could, Jeroen Leenarts: you could do that with Swift, you I just have some, some layout that has some level of complexity. And just just getting that on screen in as few characters as possible. But also, then, another angle you could take is like in as few objects in your entire view hierarchy as possible. Maybe. So yeah, that's it. There's some interesting stuff going on there. But you could actually, maybe we should try and do that sometime. Stefan Blos: I was just thinking like, is this swift to I petals dot def domain taken? I can show you Jeroen Leenarts: why that's not it is going to be like, Nope, still free. But it's going to be taken after this space, right? Probably by somebody online. Stefan Blos: Let's see. Let's see. Yeah, that's something I really, really like. So I think that's a that's a cool thing to have, aside from the regular old iOS development. Jeroen Leenarts: And it's also different rights to web development, no app stores and stuff. Just build something trolled online somewhere and you thought, Stefan Blos: Well, yeah, there's, there's quite a few services. And I of course, I don't want to mention any because we don't want to promote stuff, right? But like there's a there's a few services that that really make it easy, like if you can just like connect your GitHub repo and that's basically it and then they will host your host your stuff somewhere. So that's that's a pretty pretty cool thing to have. Like with all the advantages that the Appstore brings, sometimes it's just really nice to get like a project out very, very quickly without the the additional layer there Jeroen Leenarts: yet. So it's also something that that you see, in our day to day work as, as developer relations, that people have a tendency to really try out a new surface with web technology. So like a website based thing. And if it's, if it if it passes the smell test, then people start digging in and try and see if they can get it going on a mobile device on a native way, or with some cross platform framework. And that's also one of the challenges that we're facing to get people to try our stuff while exploring their options, and having a look at at our stuff in a native app way as soon as possible. So Stefan Blos: that would mean in the end, in the end, but it's basically where the user is, right? If the if the user is on the mobile platform, then it makes sense to do things natively. Jeroen Leenarts: But yeah, yeah. But every mobile device is, is a web browser in itself, or it has it available as well, right. So I understand that web is like the biggest, the biggest thing people can can pick up to get going with the project. So yeah, let's, let's go to topic. Now, one thing that I briefly mentioned, before we started with this, Twitter space, are actually the three that really started and kicked it off. What was audio, because one thing that has bothered me, since the start that we've been doing these 12 spaces has been the audio quality that you get from the recording that you can download from from Twitter itself. So we're just trying to experiment a little bit and capturing higher quality audio feeds off the both of us. But it does move into some of the things that that's related to audio because, as some people might know, listening to this Twitter space, also do a podcast. And there, of course, audio is also a big thing, because it's basically the only thing that you have available when when creating an episode, right? Yeah, of course, you have your show notes and your your show artwork. But the audio, that's the main thing. And what I've been like dealing with is trying to figure out a way to to have some sort of a mobile setup, that I can just put in my backpack, and just on the go, if I'm at an event, if I'm meeting somebody that I can just on the spot, think, hey, this could actually be interesting for my podcast, that I could just pin something on them and start talking, right. So recently will be ideal. Yeah, yeah. So you already have like the Rode Microphone available that's like this two little boxes and in the center unit that receives both of these boxes, feeds, but it's lacking some features. And now GTI is creating something called DGI MC. And but it's just not available yet, but it looks so enticing in the in the feature set that it has. Because not only can you like on the go, put a microphone on somebody and a microphone on yourself and have decent recording quality. But also there's there's all kinds of adapters and cables that you can attach it to any device that you have available. So you should be able to also attach it to your to your iPhone or Android device or iPads if you have it available. But the problem I'm facing with all this audio stuff is there's like so much stuff that that you can look into, and have a basic setup that I've been using for like, I don't know, over a year now and it's working fine for me. But that just keep on adding up on. Sorry. I keep on adding on the website of Sure. Microphones and I'm keeping it better at seven a microphone. So I'm having a bit of a voice issue here. Yeah. Stefan Blos: I mean, the whole variety of options you have is always a problem. Especially when you're passionate about a topic and get deeper into it right then it's always like okay, there's more. Yeah, there's more. Yeah, because Jeroen Leenarts: the microphone and use of podcasting is like, it's I think it's a Samsung. I don't know what but it's a Q seven. I think it's like a it's a 30 Euro microphone, but this sure beta 87 a microphone. That's it's a whole different type of microphone, but I wanted to try it out. I wouldn't buy it outright, like online and just hope for the best. But it's a microphone that's like it's almost 10 times as expensive as the thing that I'm using right now. And it's like a bit of one of those things. Yeah, it's it's a bit much really just for a microphone maybe. Especially if you're just broadcasting because I'm not doing any stage performances, like a singer or anything like that yet. Yeah, I could. I could try that. But I would probably scare everybody out of the room within like five now within 30 seconds, I think because I'm not a singer at all. But yeah, it is it is interesting with all this audio stuff that there's like, all kinds of tangents that you can go into. Because you have the hardware, you have the software. I'm editing audio, like all the time from a podcast. So you get, like, decent edits at some point, at least that's what I hope. But I'm discovering the test all all the time, there's more stuff to learn about it and really thinks you can. I could do different with each time I do every editing session. So Stefan Blos: yeah, there's a few. There's a few things I was thinking about. Because like, what one thing you mentioned, like you, you're doing a lot of audio editing, right? Yeah. What software are you using for that? Jeroen Leenarts: I actually use like a very bespoke bit of software. It's called Hindenburg Journalist Pro. So it's, it's a bit of software. It's it's not a native Mac app, it at least doesn't look native, but it works very well. And the benefit is that it's, it's it's a software package that's specifically tailored for audio narration. So whether you're like, so broadcast audio, so it's very well suited for creating like a radio show, or a podcast, or any pre recorded things you can like have multiple tracks. It's a multitrack editor, which can quite conveniently and easily do voice based things in there. Of course, you can also add a music track, but it's in no way as advanced as what's the, what's the apple called soft. What's the Apple software? Logic? I think it is logic is not in no way as advanced as logic. But it's, it's very specific and tailored to what I need for an audio editor. And it's it's very convenient, lots of keyboard shortcuts that I get used to. So yeah, my workflow is mostly like one hand on the keyboards on one hand on my trackball, and just doing the editing. And then that way, you can do the editing reasonably quickly, at least, I hope, probably, if you have like a real pro, they they go like 10 times as fast. But I'm at least not just mousing around all the time anymore, that as I was in the beginning, because that was slowing me down, like significantly. Stefan Blos: I mean, it's cool, because like, it's I think it's always interesting to see like, while while there's this huge solution that Apple provides, in Logic Pro, for example, it's very nice to see like smaller software vendors, like getting into this niche of, of very specific or like at least more specific target audiences. And I think it's a very, very, very nice thing to have that to have like this, this broad software that's good for a lot of things, but like these very targeted niche product that yeah, can survive on their own. And that's Jeroen Leenarts: if you'd, if you compare Hindenburg with logic logic, basically, it's an audio editor. And it has to work for pretty much everybody doing something with audio. And of course, there is a specific group within audio editing that that has very much very, very high benefits with using logic. But if you look at the Hindenburg, there's, there's very, that's very focused, there's some tools in there to do some audio quality improvement, noise reduction, all that stuff, it's packaged in there. And of course, there are better ways to do noise reduction, or better ways to do audio sweetening. Also, that voice sounds more like a broadcast way. But the convenience is there. So it's like the people developing this nice software, they really focus on a smaller group of individuals. So their, their product has less features, but also the workflow in the tool is probably more it's more streamlined for the purpose of the tool. And that's what I really liked with with Hindenburg because it was a big investment at the start of my podcasting, but like two episodes in I just committed to to know buying this to outright and it's like 250 euros. So that's a whole bunch of money, but ever since it's been providing me so much convenience and IT Optimize my workflow in so many ways that it's yeah, I'm glad I Yeah, I bet that bullet at the start of of my podcasting Stefan Blos: sounds like a good investment. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, it's it's saved me like I think multiple hours every month by now. Stefan Blos: Yeah, that makes sense. Like the other question I had was would be like, so you mentioned that the ideal ideal setup for you is on the go right? And like today I had to plug in my like, semi professional microphone here. Which is I think at the same like price level that you mentioned, so it's not very, very sophisticated but it does the job for me so it has a it has a USB A adapter to it so I only I can only plug it in with an adapter to my into my MacBook because not only has USBC but that's there was one thing I was wondering because like I'm I'm a total amateur in that. But I was wondering like if you had microphones that offer USBC connections, right? I mean, the the iPad Pro, and also the iPad Air now, I think, to have USBC plugins or like USBC USBC, what we call them, things you attach it to. And like that, doesn't that make it easier to use something like external microphones? Or what's the what's the point that's holding that down? Jeroen Leenarts: Well, of course, you have to have like, a lightning connector for your iPhone or iPad nowadays have used PC. And it's, it's a bit trial and error. Because if a microphone or an interface for microphone supports the correct protocols, it is literally plug and play on your iPad or iPhone, and it should just work, you should be able to use it as an audio source. But there's no guarantee because also on the app side of things, the app developers they need to do, they need to take specific steps to make sure that they that they interface with the external microphone, I know for instance, Riversides, that's, that's a service that I use for my remote recording sessions from interviews that I can use on the go and on my desktop, because you have an iOS app. But with this iOS app, they took the steps to make sure that you can plug in a microphone, and then have a pretty decent chance of it working. And it's just a little bit of yeah, you just have to bring your device to like one of these shops that sell this stuff. And then just try out a couple of devices that you have on your wish list and see if the item top or at the top of your wish list if it actually works for your device. And the nice thing about DTI MC is that it's specifically tailored for on the go recording. And they have like they put an adapter for lightning and USBC in the box. And they specifically state on the product page that this works with iOS devices and Android devices. So yeah, it's it's a little bit of trial and error. But you should be able to get like a quality microphone attached to an iOS device and then be able to record and then once the analog to digital conversion is done. Because usually these devices do it in the device and not in the in the phone, then yeah, it depends a bit on the device that you're using, what quality you are left with. Because once it's digital, nothing changes anymore. But yeah, that's also a little bit of hit or miss depending on which microphone that you're using what quality the analog to digital conversion actually does. Stefan Blos: But that's one of the one of the topics I think, is super interesting, because I'm always a huge fan of thinking that the the iPad and the iPad, especially the Pro is actually like replacing the MacBook or like pro laptops for some for some use cases or some workflows. And I think that's a very interesting one because like it really, like makes use of the capabilities of the iPad Pro, or like any any pro pro device there. Because the portability is very nice, you can take it anywhere. And it's very, very, like lightweight. So I think if things are if workflows like that can be replaced on on tablets, without like, without any disadvantages or losses in quality, that would be a pretty cool thing to have. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, definitely. And, and especially with if you use like a dedicated surface for your recording, and it has an iOS presence, you can do the recording and then this app from the service will take care of things and make sure that it's uploaded into some sort of cloud location. And then also getting the raw audio back to your editing station is also much easier because audio editing and video editing on like on the go on an iPad or on an iPhone. Yeah, that's you could try it, there are some things you can do. But that's in no way you you get like to the level of finesse that you can get with with like a full screen desktop or laptop based solution. So also, the recording part is one thing but then getting the data off your device where you can do the editing that's also an important thing you have to take care of in these situations, I think. Stefan Blos: Yep. All right. All right. I am sorry to cut you off there but maybe we should jump to the next portion. But I mean, you could talk or and me as well. endlessly about this probably so Jeroen Leenarts: yeah, there's so much details but that's that's what anything really if, if you're if you casually use things and then between casual usage and a true expert, there's such a wide range of of things you can learn and discover and at some point along this line, you will just find your spot that it's good enough for your use cases. and you don't want to invest more time and effort into getting more of an expert on on a specific subject. So but what do you what did you want to talk about next? Stefan Blos: All right, we made a list for that. And I have this very nice point on my list that I want to mention sports, but we don't want to talk about it too much. Because like, it's, it's probably a very, very specific thing. But I'm a huge sports fan. I really like doing it and also watching sports like so. Jeroen Leenarts: But What sports do you practice say yourself then? Stefan Blos: So I'm an active basketball player first. My my knee can can sing a song about that, because that's how I got injured lately. So yeah, so much for that. And like, in my, in my spare time, I basically do everything, like whatever is possible to do, like playing volleyball, or maybe maybe soccer as well. I'm from Germany. So soccer is like, inevitable as a child, especially so. Yeah. But yeah, I also like watching sports, and I can I can talk endlessly about that, but I won't. But like the the the NBA playoffs are on right now. And American football is also something that's very interesting to me. But yeah, anybody is into that, please, please contact me. I'm always desperate to talk about that. So Jeroen Leenarts: yeah, basketball, soccer, I don't I don't follow American football, I don't really get beyond the Super Bowl itself. So actually, the decision final, and other sports they have like a tendency to pay attention to is, is Formula One racing. And I basically did that like, as long as I can remember, because my dad always was like, a big fan of watching these events. And of course, with now a Dutch try for doing very well last year. And there's some, there's some opinions about that, which we won't go into. But, um, but now, this year, he's is doing what he can, but it does add some some tension and some excitement, to the whole event of watching these, these sporting these racing events. So that's a whole other dimension of additional fun that you get with just watching the Formula One, like the challenges the drivers face the competition that are in the technical developments that you see raised race, but then now having like Dutch guy doing quite well there actually, yeah, that's also, of course, it's just some random dude that I don't have no clue of who he is, and what kind of person Yes, but he's Dutch. So that's exciting. And he lives in Belgium or Monaco, actually. So what do you get excited about right. And personally, in in activities that I partake, that's like, I do a lot of walking, actually. So just every evening, if I haven't walked in off during the day, I go out and just take a walk for an hour, that's like a big forest area near my home that I enjoy going to. But also, I tend to go to the to the gym, like two or three times each week. And I really need to because I'm getting in the age that I'm not 20 anymore. So when I was 20, I could just eat whatever I want and nothing happens. But nowadays, it's like if I eat anything that I would like, there's a whole different chance that it would be facing getting my pants on in the morning then so I'm not there yet. Don't want to get there. But I'm trying to do the healthy things to avoid getting into this situation of gaining too much weight. Stefan Blos: And so yeah, I thought I thought you were working in home office. Jeroen Leenarts: But yeah. Even if I'm working at home, I'm not sitting in my underwear. Stefan Blos: Okay, yeah. Okay. Like, one before we go too much into detail detail here. And I want to change the subject a little bit, but I think I think it's a very nice thing to have something like sports or bead walking or whatever you do, but like physical activity. Exactly. You have to have that in your like, your schedule every day, or like multiple times throughout the week. Because, like both of us are having like a job that's that involves a lot of sitting in front of the desk. And yeah, if you read furiously typing into the topic, Jeroen Leenarts: I do tend to sit in front of my desk not under or behind it. Stefan Blos: Yeah. Yeah, you got over I think son like keep up with new new things. But yeah, I think it's a very good thing to have like physical activity in your in your day because it's also a very nice thing to switch up because like if you get stuck at something, one thing I really noticed is like if you go out and go go jogging or whatever, or go walking for, for example, an hour It's a very good thing to get a new, new look at things and get a new look at problems, maybe you were having more challenges you were facing. And it's Jeroen Leenarts: actually, I actually call that the shower effect. Because what you're what you tend to hear with people if they have some issue that they're facing, so mentally challenging subjects that you're that, that are struggling with, then for some reason, if people just switch up as surroundings and just do something else, to just get the brain off things, then yeah, your brain just keeps on working, even when you're not aware of it. And then what you do here a lot, and what I experienced myself sometimes is that you just taking a shower in the evening, and then all of a sudden, you have like this, this light bulb moment that's like, I can fix it, like by doing this and that. And then it challenges your look under the shower, how are you going to like, hang on to this? How did this idea how are you going to store this, this thought that you had so because quite often then afterwards, when you like, downstairs again, it takes a lot of effort to get your mind back on the thing that you thought about when you were in the shower actually having the thought. So that's, that's a very fun thing. And that's also what I noticed, when I'm walking, that you also have these moments that you like, oh, I can do this, or it can do that. But then you have your phone with you, then you can just quickly make a voice memo so that you are typing in some some notes somewhere, so that you can then just put your device again, away and then be back in a moment, again, being any physical activity again, and not having your minds trying to hang on to this thought that you just had, which is also very nice that you can just let go of things again, while doing something else. Really. Stefan Blos: Absolutely. But like, that's interesting, because like, I think everybody knows these moments. For me, it's it's mostly like waking up at 1am and thinking like, Oh, this is how I could fix everything I have problems with very nice, and then I fall back asleep. And the next morning, I think, yeah, what was that getting again? Yeah. But like so. So what what's your hack for that? So you mentioned like you just just adding a quick voice memo or just Jeroen Leenarts: typing. If you have a device available then just a quick voice memo or, because if you have an Apple Watch, there's like, there's also a memo feature on there. So I have that I have that ready, actually on my watch face that it's one tap to get going. Yeah, and otherwise, I'm actually one of these people that has like a notepad and, and I think it's pencil right now next to my bed, so that even with my eyes closed, I can try and scratch something half asleep on this notepad and then just get back to sleep again, best thing that you can do is just sleep through the night and not having these moments in the middle of the night that you wake up and just have your ideas while you're having breakfast. But yeah, it is it is convenient to have easy tools available that you can capture a thought so that's why I'm saying voice memo or a notepad so something that has a low barrier of of accessing said and that you also can then afterwards quickly put away again so that it's not like taking you out of the moment or the activity that you're doing will be it walking or sports or sleeping. Stefan Blos: Yeah, that's a very good point. I tend to use like digital things for that. Like I don't have the classic like notebook and pencil setup. I really really like the digital setup, but I'm like whatever whatever is best suited for that. Yeah, with you mentioned like quick accessibility is the is the key there Right? Yeah, Jeroen Leenarts: yeah. And it is I'm sleeping in a room with somebody else in the bed as well. So my my wife is of course sleeping next to me. But if you're like if you have the opportunity to put like one of these one of these home assistants near you already feel comfortable with that. I haven't gotten your bedroom. You don't have like one of these Google speakers or your your device someone drink Siri and then just go like hey thing imagick Remind me to do something something tomorrow. So I've heard of people doing that as well. I'm specifically not mentioning the trigger words here. Stefan Blos: And make sense yeah. Yeah, that's interesting. But like with those I always have the like the scare that it doesn't understand me correctly and then I'm trying to reconstruct so like if I if I don't understand what I tried to dictate it to. Jeroen Leenarts: I start with Google device that you want them to run remind you of something and then they just go on the go drone on about I couldn't find anything on subject blah, blah, blah. The thing he basically wants to be reminded about Yeah, and then then there's a whole new level of frustration that you're running into. So that's why I really like voice memo or notepad because that's like it's just a recording or A piece of paper with some words on it. Stefan Blos: Yeah. That's that's a very good point. All right. That was like a little bit of a detour on my on my sports point. But I think I think we, we checked that mark. So yeah, but Jeroen Leenarts: it is health related. And that also ties into the next subject, actually. Because, yes, we spent like, a ton of time at our desks. So what if you look at a carpenter, one of their most important tools is, for instance, a hammer. And if you look at the hammer they're using, and you look at a hammer that you have in your toolkit, or in your toolbox at home, we have like, like this fire for 10 Euro thing that's called a hammer. But if you go to these one of these professionals, they have a hammer that's like, Yes, something it's quite often over 100 euros. So what are beating a nail with. And I think that's also true for for people who have like a desk job that have like, spent a whole bunch of time with their hands on a keyboard or a mouse, or some other input device. And I always wonder why people are that spend like days at their desks, why they don't spend some effort, and also some resources. Why don't spend some resources on getting getting a proper keyboards for their physique, a proper input device, mouse or trackball that they enjoy. But also the deck set up so that you're in proper posture, economically sound environment so that you're capable of doing your work with as little opportunity for negative effects of that as possible. Of course, you need to take your breaks and all that stuff. But I also think that the input devices and screen, and the setup that you're using is also very important. And that sent me on like, a bit of a bit of a discovery quest with keyboards. And as a tangent of that also with with mice, because for years and years, I've been using whatever Apple provides, you know, these, these the low profile mouse low profile keyboards, I was using that quite often. I was also one of these people that would always use like the trackpad and the keyboards of the MacBook said themselves, no external devices. But at some point, I just, I think it was due to a Kickstarter, I got interested in mechanical keyboards and started discovering that and I'm not one of these people using a keyboard that has like, it has 44 buttons on it. So it's it's very small, and it has layers, and you have to do all kinds of crazy things to do all the input that you want to do. But the benefit is it's a split layout. It allows me to be in a posture that is good for my shoulders, good for my elbows good for my forearms. And just because I my deck setup is that I don't have much room next to my keyboard. I was wondering how can I solve that? So and then at some point instead of a mouse, I went with, with with a trackball, which because years ago, I use one of these Logitech trackballs. And I really enjoyed that. Then I've been using my mice for like years and years. But now I'm back to a trackball, again, and I'm using just I basically went looking for the trackball with the biggest ball I could find. And that so happened to be like a Kensington trackball. And it's, it's been working fine for me, but what's your idea of what I just said there? Stefan Blos: I agree. I agree with most of what you said. Like I think it's important to have like a proper setup. Like there's there's a simple there's a simple reason for people not having like a too complex setup or like the best things out there. And I think that's probably because they're pretty expensive. But like I get what you're saying of course like it's it's a thing that that is definitely worth the investment I think because it's like if it if it helps your body and your like overall well being then it's I think reasonable to say that this is not the place to be cheap, basically right? Jeroen Leenarts: That it's also the materials that these things are made off just having like not like the thin cheap plastic it really it I'm touching it all day so yes it there's some some money that I spent on it, but it does feel nice to my hands nice to touch. It's it's like murky waters in a wooden enclosure. There's wood feels warmer to the touch them and then a piece of plastic. And the trackball. It's like this this big, smooth ball that really, yeah, it's actually really it's also sort of a fidget toy. Really, if I can just pick up the ball from a trackball and just play with it a little bit. But yeah, it's I heard different opinions on that because there are people that really enjoy and love the apple provided keyboards and mice. But you had more I use the stuff that I'm using right now the less I like using the Apple provided stuff, but I do tend to go with convenience. So if I'm on the go, I used the trackpad, I used to keyboards of the of the laptop itself. I don't have a tendency to plug it in on a on a monitor, if it's available somewhere, because it's just yeah, it's just not my setup. So that's like I'm on two tracks there. Because, on one hand, when I'm on the go, I want convenience. And when I'm at home, I just want to have like, my little bespoke fidgety things that I enjoy. The basically that I enjoy touching when I'm working. It sounds a bit weird, but Stefan Blos: it does. It does. Like, I'm laughing, like, internally a lot. But yeah, I think I'm pretty much on the opposite side, though, like I'm using what I'm using is like, I'm using the Apple Magic keyboard, or whatever it's called, I really liked that it has touch ID that's really, really convenient. Because like, it's, for example, if you use like a password manager, it's really nice to have the touch ID button right on the keyboard. I use the trackpad like the Magic Trackpad, I think it's a very, very cool thing to have a very convenient, like, input device. So I think that's a very, I'm happy with that. Like, I also thought about getting a mechanical keyboard, because I think the typing experience is pretty nice on one hand, because I've tried that out. Like I've tried a few mechanical keyboards, and I always really liked the haptic of it. So I think it's a thing I'm definitely considering for the future. But like one thing I'm a little bit concerned about is, like you mentioned, you have this keyboard with 44 keys, right? Yeah. Like, if I'm getting used to something like that. I think for me, if I'm for example, traveling or like using the MacBook on the go, I think it will be like always like the context switch of, hey, I have to use now a regular keyboard again, like I'm a little bit scared, scared is the wrong word. But I have a little bit of respect for how much time it would take me to get used to the respective method of emoting, Jeroen Leenarts: again, actually, I've did some measurements on that, on this 44 key keyboard, and when I'm typing long form text. It's less fatiguing for me when typing but my typing speed is lower compared to like regular style keyboard. After deliberative training on this keyboard to get like decent typing speeds, and then it's more than quick enough for me. But when I want to take like a regular form factor keyboards, then I put it in front of me and I just start using it, there's no, there's no barrier there. It's like, I don't notice any slowdown. I have, like all the muscle memory remaining of all the key combinations and using like the regular style keyboard. And I think that's also I maintain that, quote unquote, ability. Because I, when I'm on the go, I use the laptop in the keyboard that has like the regular layout. So I think I think there's no issue there. And the same goes with using the trackball and trackpads of the of the of the laptop itself. Even if I very occasionally use a mouse, there's no, there's no, there's no, there's no barrier there for me. So and I've heard from people who type on QWERTY layout and other layouts because I use Qwerty because I cannot wrap my head around using a different layout for my keyboard. I've heard from those people that if they have a different layout that they use in one setup, and then QWERTY layout in another setup, that's as long as the keyboard that you're actually using has enough of a difference. And there's no issue for them. So people have a tendency, like if they have like some weights to fall across model a day. If they do this on their own split keyboard, they're fine. If you will try to do that on a regular style keyboard, they're in trouble. And if they try to type QWERTY layout on the split keyboards, they're also in trouble. So they in some way your mind is capable of separating those things, I think. Stefan Blos: Okay, yeah. I mean, yeah, like, like I said, I've not experienced there. I'm just like the initial scare. That's, that's holding me back for now. Yeah, but let's see. I mean, if the two of us keep working together, like it will eventually happen. I'm pretty sure about that. Right. So Jeroen Leenarts: just to recap, so what you're using is the external sort of separate magic keyboard by Apple, which has the touch ID and use the Magic Trackpad, right. Stefan Blos: Yeah, exactly. And you're using I have my laptop on a stand. So I think that's a convenient thing because it's more eye level. And of course, it's it's a better perspective for the webcam, which is the most important factor right now So yeah, and like what other tools are like I am using headphones, that those are pretty, pretty nice. I'm using Bose headphones for that. And for meetings, mostly the the airports, the pro pro version, which is really, I'm really happy with those. I was like, I didn't, I was a longtime no airports user. But I am really happy now that these are here, because they're really an amazing piece of technology. But yeah, I think that's that's mostly the tools I'm having here. But what about you do you have some, some special things. Some more special things such. Jeroen Leenarts: As already mentioned, I use the trackball, the one that I'm using is Kensington expert wireless. So it's it's the it's a five centimeter diameter, trackball that's in the device. So it's really nice and big, nice and chunky. And it has some nice features distract while like scrolling around the ball itself. As a keyboard, I use a keyboard IO Atrius keyboard, which is like a minimalist keyboard that has 44 keys, it's wired. So I have to attach it on USB, and have it in a in a, I think it's a walnut wood enclosure. So it's like laying in like a sort of a wedge shaped piece of wood. So that the height of the keyboard of the keyboard keys compared to the surface that my hands are on. If I'm resting, that that's like, minimize, so there's like only the travel and the height of the keycaps. That that that is like the race that I need to get my hands on. I am waiting for a keyboard to your model 100 That's like a split layout keyboard, that's two separate units. And it has like this sculpted area that your fingers resting it's a little bit like like one of these what is the what are they called? At advantage keyboards by I don't know what, whatever the company is, but they have this big, big bulky device that has like these two key wells that you put your fingers in, but this sort of the same, but then it's two separate units. But hopefully sometime this year, I will get those the that keyboard because it's a Kickstarter that I've participated in like I think it's now over a year ago. And they are really facing the issues of the supply chain of trouble that the whole world is having issues with. So I'm hoping to get that. Yeah, for meetings, I use the same device issue. So airpots Pro, and for headphones, I if I use headphones, I use my monitor headphones that I use for podcasting. Because when you when you do audio editing, you don't want to go wireless, because the the latency you just notice it when you're editing, it's really small latency, but you want to be wide because then the feedback is more direct. And you will feel that your ears are more attached to what your fingers are doing on screen. And that's very important when doing audio editing. And, yeah, as a webcam, I just use a Logitech stream cam. And that's it. It's a bit fiddly to get right. But it's somewhat works for me. So Oh, and I also I also built my own keyboards split layout thing called Lily five, eight, that will just link everything from the show notes, I guess. Unknown: Yeah, we will. We will. So Jeroen Leenarts: leaving at the time. Yeah. Do we have? Do we have time for one final topic? Or is it like, Yeah, we're good enough. Family is also important. And we're gonna enjoy some time with our families. Stefan Blos: I think that's the final topic. Right? Family is cool as well. I mean, yeah, that's basically that sums it up, right? Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, it's very hard for me when in regards to family because I'm a bit of a workaholic. But if you would ask me straight up, what's the most important thing for you? I would always say family, but the challenge I'm always having is like, lining up my behavior when I'm working with my beliefs. Because it's very easy to be stuck in the moment to like, yeah, just one more line of code, just keep on going. While actually should like disconnect. This stuff can go wait till tomorrow. Right now my, my wife, my family, my kids, they they need me to be to just be their husband. Just be the dad have fun with them. Be part of the family life and that's that's that's the biggest challenge. I always face when working. When I'm not working. It's easy, but like making the switch that's that's something I have to keep on working on I think Stefan Blos: yeah, but I mean it's, it's it's a good thing to have like this stability, like aside from the from the worker having and to always have like the, like the option to have this this fallback of of the family that's like, not always easy to have, of course. I mean, we we know that kids are always great always. You just love always. But Jeroen Leenarts: even when you want to put them behind like a bit of wallpaper for the day. Yeah, Stefan Blos: that might happen. But you Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's so great to have that great. And I agree with you, it's sometimes hard to like, do the context switch there. Because if you're if you're very, like interested or invested in something, it's tough. But yeah, I mean, it's always like, always worth it. And like, like we already set like, it's sometimes always very nice to just step away for some time from the from work and everything and come back with like, a fresh mindset that, yeah, all like very often this is the best like, like debugging or bug fixing you can make, right? Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, just go in the yard and throw some balls or kick some balls with the kid. And then when you get back to your keyboard, it's like I added. Now this whole problem that I was facing this morning, it's not that difficult, because have some new insights and some new ideas that, that move things forward again. And it's also the reason why I do my work is to support my family and myself in the lifestyle that we aspire to. And it's, it's the work that's serving me and my family, and not me and my family serving my work. Stefan Blos: Yeah, and it's good to like to, like, remind yourself from time to time about that factor. I mean, that's for sure. It really helps in some cases. So I think it's a good thing to regularly do. Jeroen Leenarts: So I guess we can just thank everybody for listening and close things off and talk to you again next week. Stefan Blos: So yeah, thanks. Thanks for listening to all the people who did and we will talk to each other and hopefully, the audience next week again,