Emin Grbo, App Developer at Tidal, creator of un:safe

Jeroen Leenarts: Hi and welcome to another special edition of my podcast. I'm sitting here with Emin Grbo. I hope I pronounced that correctly. And Emin is I think you're from Croatia, right? Unknown: Yeah, that's a good. I mean, it's hard to guess because I was born in Croatia. My father is from Bosnia, my mother is from Serbia. My sister was born in Bosnia, and I lived most of my life in Serbia. So, yeah, it's ex, like, ex Yugoslavia, like all over the place. So like, yeah, that's, Jeroen Leenarts: but that's not where you currently are living right Unknown: now. Currently, I'm in Oslo, Norway, and then been there for about one and a half years. When I started the title. Jeroen Leenarts: How, how has the Scandinavian climate been for you? Yeah, Unknown: that's always the main question and a worry for some that plan to move and everything. The thing is I I explored Norway before that, I planned because my wife and my plan for like the years back, was to move to Norway one day, like in the future, one day, it was always like, on the horizon, and nothing that we rushed towards, but we always planned for it. So one year, we were like, Hey, let's, instead of going to the seaside or anything, like go to Norway, for 10 days, see what it's like, and especially to see what the weather's like. And surprisingly, especially compared to Serbia, it's not too much different. It's, the thing is, temperatures don't go too much up or down. It's like if it's two degrees in the morning, it's two degrees in the 6pm. And I mean, not always, of course, but the only. But still, the major difference is when the wind blows, it blows. So it can move that from minus two to minus 15, just because of the wind. And of course, the long nights are long days. But again, from November to January, it's the days a bit shorter. But then, during the summertime, like in level o'clock or midnight, it's still kind of day. And that's really refreshing, like you go out for a night walk, or just before the stores close to pick up some stuff. And it's like, Sun is blasting so it's, it's actually, it feels good. But compared to December, not as well. But again, it depends for me and my wife, it works really well. And we are loving it so far at least. Jeroen Leenarts: So what why Norway then Unknown: both delivered I, for some reason, I have those moments in life where something just strikes me. And I remember in geography class, like in my elementary school, maybe maybe high school. We were looking at maps, and I always like had like a bit of attraction to maps. And I thought Trondheim and I were like, Oh, wow, that sounds like a cool city name. Like where is it? Oh, it's Norway. Oh, so I want to move to Norway one day and that idea. Like it was like a seed of an idea that stuck with me. And then after that, like you hear like some news like or, but always happy news, like, oh, this happened in Norway or, or like the standard is like, really, really good. And there's no too much poverty or similar and you just hear good stuff. And then that idea grows more and more. And then my then girlfriend now wife decided to start studying Norwegian, completely unrelated to that seed of an idea that I had in the back of my head. So when she decided to, like, focus on Scandinavian languages, it kind of like connected, you know, and from then on, we were both like, oh, let's move one day. And so it feels like like, best thing I gotta say, it sounds a bit too outlandish. Maybe but it's, it does. It is it in a way. It feels like it came together on its own, you know? Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah. So and and how was your Norwegian then? Unknown: It turns out my language. Language learning ability is not as good as my wife's. I did English. I never learned it, like, focused on learning it but I did like pick it, pick it up for like movies and games and all that. And it's something that I tried, of course, like now when we moved to Norway, it's something that we will that I need to focus on more. Definitely because I do plan to leave it there. Like for the foreseeable future. It's not just something that I plan to like there will be there for Jeroen Leenarts: certain and then well, let's talk about more IOs related stuff. What's your current day job? Unknown: My current day job is iOS developer for Idol. For those who are not too familiar with it, it's like a music app similar to Spotify. And it only the only major difference is that it focuses on sound quality. And it has like, some premium stuff, but mainly the sound quality. So it's like a, it's aimed at the users who like to have like, their lossless audio or, and stuff like that. And yeah, and I've been working for title for one and a half years now. Jeroen Leenarts: So and your role is day to day development of the product called Title the app in iOS? Yes, Unknown: yes, I'm part of the core team in the in title, which and how Jeroen Leenarts: biggest group of iOS developers will entitle that. Unknown: Currently, it was 10 of us. Now, I think it's 13, maybe even 14, because we've been growing in the past month, quite a bit. And we have like, all time, like we have like, different interviews with new people and new people are coming in. So I'm not sure the exact number now. But I think it's like 13, definitely 14, or it could be a month or so. Jeroen Leenarts: Cool. And how did you end up with title then? Oh, I, Unknown: I think I just ran across them like LinkedIn or something. Because while I was my first iOS developer job was in Telugu in Belgrade. And I was working there only for like a year like, and that was my first IOCL PR job. So I didn't have too much experience. I still didn't plan to seek new employment. I was happy where I was, or still learning and everything. But when I ran across title, I was like, oh, like music app. It looks cool. I haven't heard of it before, because it wasn't present in Serbia. But when I looked into it, it seemed really interesting. And I liked the product, of course, and I was always into music, like not too much, but as much as the next person, I guess. And again, like, I, you get the feeling like, oh, this seems like a good company, then you read a couple blogs or reviews or whatever. And you see that it might be something that there'll be good. And then I just apply them. It was so fast. That's how, like interviews first second round everything and just I was hired. I was like, mind Jeroen Leenarts: blown. Yeah. So that if I'm if my calculus is correct, you've been working as an iOS developer for two and a half years, right? Unknown: Yes, yes. I think, for me, to make it easier to calculate for myself. I put like my beginning of my iOS career 2019. Jeroen Leenarts: But yeah, pretty much. That's that's two and a half, three years. Yeah. And what did you do before that? Because you had a job in Belgrade? First, what kind of job? Was that? Your first job in iOS? Oh, yeah. Unknown: It was. I was a solo iOS developer at Telugu, a company that it's like a contractor company, which builds apps for various clients. And when he joined the company, they didn't have iOS developer at all within the company, they were outsourcing outsourcing their developer. So it was very lucky for me, because when I applied, and I heard from a friend who heard from a friend or whatever, and I just applied for the job, and when I went for an interview, I was like, since it was my first developer interview, I wasn't sure what I need to know. Or I kept going over, like, what's the difference between a class and astruc? And maybe some algorithmic questions or whatever, I wasn't sure. What can they ask me? You know? So when I went for an interview, we were talking just about everything, but nothing like too technical. And by the end of the talk, they asked me like, hey, like, Do you have any more questions for us? Like, no, but do you have any for me, because we have any test, like takeover test or any technical questions? And they're like, yeah, like, you're going to be like, the only iOS developers so and we don't have an iOS developer to give you take home tests. So if you want to join us, we're good. Like, and in my mind, I was a bit scared and happy at the same time, but their CTO at the time he was later on, I realized that he saw he understood where I'm coming from and what I have learned so far, and the some technical questions that he did ask he he was comforted to know that hey, like, this dude seems like he can pick up stuff and learn on the fly and he He's easy to talk to. So that'll do, basically. And now looking back, I definitely see, there's a lot higher value in that, like, the recognize potential and ability to learn and the will to learn and everything. So I'm so, so thankful to him for like, realizing that not asked me like something technical and to try and track me or anything because I was so scared at the time. Jeroen Leenarts: Because that was Was that your first interview after after you finished an education? Or what was? What was the situation for you? Oh, Unknown: no, I'm old. I'm 34 years old now. And I before that I was a UX designer. I started working as UX designer in 2007. And they started studying 2006. So I was right. When I was at college, I started doing some design work. And I was a Flash developer. Actually, I had like a developer in my name, like from my first job, even though it was more of a designer role. Yeah, so I was working as a designer for our, for several, I don't want to say to corporate companies, but I worked for DDB for a while, which is a popular marketing agency all over the world. I picked up a lot of knowledge there. And then after that, I moved to freelance. And I was freelancing from 2012 until 2019. So but the thing is, as far as interviews go, I only had one interview in 2007. And then the other one in 2008, or nine when I started working for a b2b. So after that, it was like freelance, so no interviews, no. Grilling, no questions. No, you know, so. So. Jeroen Leenarts: So just to drop a timeline a little bit. So 2007, you started working, then? Between 2012 and 2019. You did freelancing? So that's all kinds of different jobs. But from 2007 to 2012, you did a lot of design related work, if I'm correct. But what made you decide to make a switch from where you were at back then the design work into freelancing and then into iOS development? Yeah, yes. That's quite that's quite some bold moves that you're making there. Yeah. Well, Unknown: the first the bold move wasn't only on my decision on my end, I mean, it was mainly, but when was the big market crash? Was it 2010 11? Or? Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, around around that timeframe? Yes. Like some some big issues with I think it was some some some US bank that fell over. And that started everything. Yeah, Unknown: it was a housing loan, or Housing Credit or whatever. Yeah. So after that, like because Serbia is even though I was in, in though the marketing agency businesses like very connected with current issues, and everything, that that whole crisis thing kind of was delayed a bit, by the time it arrived here, in a way, or at least that was the way how we felt it like in a business. And I saw that happening. And at the same time, I kind of wish to have more freedom to explore. And because UI or UX at the time wasn't too popular, or to present or too much focused on, it was mostly just UI, so and UX kind of seemed like more of a problem, problem solving a thing that I want to focus on, and when I'm working in prints, and doing billboards and stuff, you don't have as much UX, you know, it's mostly just make it breeding, in a way. Yeah. So I kind of want him to focus on that, and then realize that the company I'm working for, I was not only the youngest person there, but person with the least years of experience, basically. So in the company, so I kind of feared like, hey, if they start firing people, I'm probably going to be one of the first in line, not because I mean, I know I'm good enough, I was good at my job and everything. But if you have like people that are working for the company for like, 1015 years, and then some kids with like, three, four years of experience, like you know, like, which way is going to go and because of all my my thinking of like, trying to switch the UX, I kind of like just went to the boss and told him like, hey, if this happens, I'm cool with it. I'm already like, lean towards it. So if it happens, like we cool basically, and turns out the fat I did that when I went into freelance because that company still needed some animation work or somehow from time to time, they actually became one of my first clients that I was able to do some work for. So it kind of gave me like that crutch to like helped me build up my freelancing portfolio in a way. So yeah, so that's how I switched the freelance. And then when I was working freelance, and in the, at that time, iOS apps were becoming like more and more popular in something that I think 89% of any jobs were like, almost always like all apps, apps, apps. So and when I started doing design for like, some very serious not pro series, like, in a way that some other apps weren't as serious, but they were fairly big apps and apps that were not only like, something that client wanted to make, like on a whim, but something that company was really investing a lot in. And I kind of felt left out that when I did the design work, because I was just outsource for them. They just picked up the designs and moved on. And I wasn't there for like the later iterations to help them. Modify screens or like optimize or whatever. And that that kind of sparked idea in my head, like, hey, like, maybe I should start being a developer, so I can not only design my own apps, I can develop them. And I can also be included into the later processes of now, looking back, it seems very clear to me that what I was interested in is entrepreneurship, and building a product and maintain the product. They're like, Oh, this product is done. Let's make it better. Let's try this. Let's try that. So experimenting, and like just nurturing a product, basically, not just shipping one product and just forgetting about it. But Jeroen Leenarts: what was the process for you because having a more or more of a design background probably means that you were educated with very different skills compared to your standard computer science graduates. So what was the process for you? How did you get started? How did you progress? And how were you able to actually be confident enough that probably also during your freelancing, you did some client work with those skills? Unknown: Yeah, I want the college that I went to was more of a general education kind of thing. Like the first two years were literally like computer science all over the place, like bits of everything. And you could explore more into any of those sections, if you want to do we had some programming classes, we had some, I remember some binary algorithmic mathematics kind of thing. So like, everything one would use basically, any computer science based work. And then the last few years, we're more more focused on the design part where we need some After Effects, Photoshop and all those like more creative visual skills. So again, like I was so lucky, lucky that I decided to go into that college because the oh, one of the main reasons why I chose that specific college was because it didn't have any mathematics and algebra, but to my surprise, because I was so silly at the time, because I was only looking, I saw like a list of subjects why I would have like, in first two years of the while attending, and I never saw mathematics, but I was always good at math. Like I It felt natural to me it felt like because the rules are there, like if you follow the rules, you cannot fail, like that doesn't have room for it doesn't have wiggle room at all. Like it's it's very exact. So I wanted to avoid that and then I get into that and then he just was attracted to that precision basically. So but again, like I said, I sidetrack for a bit and maybe missed the question, but the the way how like my whole process for that was that I just always had some programming skills that I wanted to pick up in the back of my head and whenever I tried to do that I always failed. And I see now that it was because I either didn't know where I could pick up that knowledge like, where I could start learning where I could get, get a course for that, or whatever. And whenever I found a place I could pick it up, it wasn't good enough for wasn't Grafton for me or something that worked for me. So I remember trying to learn HTML, CSS five or six times, and I never did, until I found out about Udemy. And then I saw like, loads of courses there. And then I found a specific teacher that worked for me, which is Angela, you and her bootcamp course, which, out of all courses that I was looking at, at the time, that one, I feel like, gave me the most knowledge that I could continue with, from then on. So basically, I think the the reason why I started functional development so late in my career, was because the resources weren't as available as they are today. Today. Like if someone asked me like, how do I start learning Swift or whatever, I would be like tater pick. Like there's so many good people on Twitter, YouTube, Udemy, Ray Wonderlic, Paul Hudson, I mean, I don't want to name names, because I didn't know so many people. And so many names that although I do have to pinpoint like mark one again, is because he is one of my top teachers in a way, because whenever whenever I see a book or tutorial or anything, for me, it's like, it's something that I cannot stress enough to anyone who starts learning Swift is that you have to find a teacher that works for you. It doesn't mean that one is better than the other. But you need to like vibe with the way someone tries to teach. Teach you things. So yeah. Jeroen Leenarts: So that was me correct in assessing that that Mark Merkins was actually the entryway for you into iOS development, because his way of explaining things his way of teaching was something that works for the way you approach learning something. And then Unknown: No, in a way, because like, chronologically, first, Angela, you was the person that kind of like, helped me, like, pick me up for like that first major step one, when you start learning, development, everything is like a bit hazy. And we are done everything. And she actually had like, even in her I remember like seeing her video, that initial Udemy presentation thing, where she said that she will not only show you how, but explain why. And that explained why it was definitely something I was lacking at the time. But after that, I picked up Paul Hudson, who puts out so many good content, and 100 days of Swift 100 days of Swift UI, which was a bit later on, but again, a bunch of books and videos from him and interacting Twitter or whatever he is. He has such a good teaching skill, which is really rare for I mean, for anyone like teaching anything, basically, it's a skill that you need to work on and develop. And he has it. He has. So Jeroen Leenarts: if you know his backstory then then you understand why he's so good at what he does. Yeah. He also has a very interesting background. He's actually been like, like a lead editor on a Linux based magazine. So I actually interviewed him, but I did not know that. And then if you hear his story, it's like, okay, that's why he's so perfectly capable of like explaining something that's stupendously complicated. But when he explains it, it's suddenly quite simple. Unknown: Simple. Yeah, yeah. But the mark morning case is then it chronologically Of course, like then after Paul Hudson, I came across mark, and I remember his first book that I pick up was the CTR views, which was more like a visual book where you have like code and then you have the view. And for me as a designer, like I always had, I mean, at first I had issues trying to visualize cool code, basically. So by the time when I picked up one of his books, I was already fairly confident in my skills, everything but he helped me like, go towards that next step. Whereas like, and I remember Shawn Island talking about that, like when you start learning, just read and learn and learn and just even if you don't understand it, I mean, try to understand it, of course, like, don't stress about not understanding something completely, because after a while, it will start to click. And with Mark when I started going over some combined books as well, after that, I felt clicking all over the place. So that's why I felt like his teaching style was something that like, like, when you round off something like in the end, like I felt having, like, solidified knowledge by that time. So Jeroen Leenarts: you made a switch into iOS development. Was that already during your freelancing stint? Or did you start iOS development professionally, when you landed that first job as an iOS developer in 2019? I think it was. Unknown: I started learning iOS development, like on the side while I was doing freelancing. And to be honest, I wasn't ready to start applying for jobs that by the time when I went for my first interview, I was like, I felt like I'm almost there. I can understand like, I think some basic concepts are there. And that I will be ready to start looking for a job. But I need to clear out my CV and everything on the start the hunt, basically. But then I heard like, I created the Mirror, mirror up on on meetup, because I couldn't find any local IRS meetups, and I wanted to talk to people like where are the companies? Like who's hiring? Or did you learn this? Or what books do you prefer? Or whatever, because I was I felt a bit low. Because I wasn't as active on Twitter. And I didn't know that community is like, so big and so hard, hearty and everything and so awesome. And all that. So I I organized that meetup and I think on the first ever meetup. The it was like two, three of us. One of the guys was like, hey, like, I know, a company who's hiring like, my buddy was there and he's happy with the company. Do you want to go for an interview? And I was like, yeah, man, I can, but I'm not sure you know. And he can add me on like, Oh, come on. I think you're ready. And all that. And the result I was ready. Jeroen Leenarts: So one interview one job. That was basically 100% hit ratio. Yeah. That's that's really nice, man. Yeah. So yeah, you made you switch into iOS development. You worked at a company in Croatia for a year, Serbia, Serbia, sorry. And I still have difficulty with because I'm of the age that Jewish Latvia is still like a country in my head. But of course, it is now. A couple of countries. Yeah. So I hope I don't offend anybody with that remark, actually. So you got started in, in your first job, and did that for a year, and then you made the switch to title. But the education that you did actually had some computer science related things in there. But you wanted to avoid a little bit of too much maths in your education initially. So what made you decide to pursue this specific education? Where was it actually Unknown: mean? Like iOS development? Or like, Jeroen Leenarts: no, the quality Oh, yeah. Oh, Unknown: now, like, really looking back, I cannot believe how lucky I was. Because when my high school like even when I was I remember the day when they not sure how it works in other countries, but like, and being early on, you have the advent of your elementary education, how like, test in mathematics and Serbian language, and they combine those results, together with not sure if we had like a basic knowledge kind of thing or whatever. And then based on those points, you can apply for high schools, local high schools. And I, I remember not doing really good on those tests. But I was more interested into going and playing Counter Strike in a local gaming, gaming room or whatever. And I remember like my manager going like, hey, like, we want to go check out this course. I was like, No, I have a, I have a game. So I was so responsible and everything but I got into general knowledge type of high school, which is not like anything specific, or directors or anything like concrete. So after that, I literally again, even though I wasn't as responsible. I was just looking for something where I knew I didn't want any map in my education. I don't know why, but for some reason, I was like, really not into it. And I was just Looking for something which, which was open enough for me to develop my idea of what I want to do when I grow up because I was growing up already. So I didn't want to do this anyone that I knew what it didn't want to do, but I didn't know what I wanted to do. Jeroen Leenarts: So it was that it's a challenge. Yeah. Unknown: And, but when I talked to a friend of my sister who was attending the college, it seemed like a dream, like everything that they were learning was definitely something I was drawn towards. And even the programming, I never saw that. In development in general, I never saw that as like, mathematics or stuff that I kind of didn't like, but I was good at. And I just went for that, you know, but again, at that time, I did not know what I wanted to what my end goal was, or what I wanted to do, basically. So I gotta say, I was lucky until I knew what I wanted to do. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, and then then you can some focus, and then things started moving for you. Unknown: Yeah, and actually interesting and really true story. But some people don't tell him that this one thing started off, or my whole career basically, was that while I was in college, I saw an ad saying, looking for Flash developer. And when I saw that, I was like, Whoa, Flash developer, like, Whoa, that sounds badass. Like, it's like flash and then developer. And it literally without knowing anything about the job, I just went for it. It wasn't an interview, they had like a presentation, like at the college campus. And I just went for a presentation and for like, oh, like the headlines, graphics and animations, and not sure if police are somewhat familiar with Flash. But it wasn't just like an animation. Macro animation type of software, which did have quite a bit of, of code in it, if you want to Jeroen Leenarts: know ActionScript. Like JavaScript, yeah, yeah. Unknown: And I remember creating my first player, actually, that was my first I want to call it game or software or something. But it was a player that I created using some bits of pieces of found online. And I thought I needed to remember and know that code by heart. So I knew how like, literally, I knew like the song how I would write that player and which functions to call where or not, I didn't realize that I knew I should have used logic. I just thought like, Oh, I'm just gonna learn how to write all this. All this code Jeroen Leenarts: that basically you could, like, recreate the same piece of software, from memory, just from top of top to bottom, typing it out. Exactly. Like, wow. That's, that's quite a challenge. Actually. Unknown: It wasn't it was fairly simple. Yeah, but Jeroen Leenarts: still, somebody Yeah, you got you got started with with Flash, which was I think Adobe created that right. Yeah. And I think Unknown: it was flash MX, when it was called Flash MX, and not sure if it was a dream? I don't know. But yeah, I think it was. It was Adobe After that, for sure. Just wasn't ready for. Yeah. Jeroen Leenarts: So um, so you already mentioned that as a kid, you had quite an interest apparently, in, in computer gaming, mostly Counter Strike, if I heard that correctly. Yeah. So it was like Counter Strike and only Counter Strike or the other games involved as well. Yeah, Unknown: for me, like, both, both from games and music and everything. I was very, not sure how I would call that. But I was very much focused on one single thing at a time. So if I was playing games, I was playing Counter Strike. And that's it. I was playing games in general. After that, I did start like, of course, empires and all those old but still awesome games. But for music, for example, I started listening to Metallica and for Raider parliamentary. And no, literally by high school, maybe second or third year, I was only listening to Metallica, and that is only the only band I knew the only band that I really like, of course, I was familiar with everything else. But that was my band, you know? So same for gaming. Even though I did play of course all the other games but kind of strike was something really near and dear to me. basically and I played for quite a while after that. Jeroen Leenarts: So any success while playing Counter Strike? Or was it mostly Unknown: Yeah, just locally and we had like, those gaming rooms and we'll do we have our rivalries like we went to another gaming room and then challenged their best place to play with us. And we all brought brought our really cheap keyboards, but they were special to us, because we have stickers on them or whatever, you know, but it was, and we, our plan basically was like really good at the time. I remember at least locally again after that, when, of course, I think in high school yeah, I remember going in high school and on the first day of my first day, when I came there, I didn't know anyone and I just entered the main entrance. And I remember guy coming up to me freak, like because that was my, my tag basically, like, well, what What room are you in and whatever. And when he found us like we're together we're like, oh my god, we're gonna play so much kind of strike and all that and because he knew me from like, my gaming career, basically. So and but after that, of course, other things became more important, like beer, girls and partying and everything. So kind of strike took a backseat for sure. Jeroen Leenarts: And then at some point, work ethic become becomes a thing. And then yeah, you're not actually a family, man, man. Yeah. Would you imagine that? Like 10 years ago? Yeah. So um, just to so yeah, playing Counter Strike a lot of computer games. What was your first computer actually, back in the day? Actually have what was the first interaction you had with a computer? What was that? Like? Oh, my Unknown: first interaction with the computer was in my father job. And I think it was 486. And I think had like a big metro how pronounced in English the printer Jeroen Leenarts: dot matrix printers. They Unknown: make a lot of noise. Yeah. Dot Matrix. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. And I remember he printed out like a dinosaur for me, and then a car and whatever. And I was like, amazed, like, whoa, this looks so cool. And I remember trying like, I think PowerPoint was like, version of it was available back then, as well, or word, of course, and all that stuff. But I Oh, yeah, I remember drawing quite a bit in Word using Word Art, and all those silly images. So that was my first introduction. But after that, we bought our first computer, which was Pentium one. Yeah, I'm not sure. Like, exactly which how many variants there were. But it didn't have the turbo got turbo button. Yeah. Which actually was your computer was faster. Here, the turbo button was off. Okay. And that's something I found out just recently, but it has like, it has like 166 megahertz. But if you turned off the turbo button, it appears that the turbo button like when you turn it on, it was actually slowing your computer down. So it would work with some older software. So and we kept it on always, so yes, I just I missed out on some major speed there. But Jeroen Leenarts: yeah, it can happen. There are some crazy things with with computers back in the day, even nowadays, actually. And so just to recap a little bit, you got started with your professional career in 2007, did a lot of design related work in all kinds of ways, mostly static images for like billboards and stuff you mentioned. And then in 2012, you started freelancing, basically, because you want to change things up a little bit. At the start of your career, there was some programming involved, that sort of might have planted the seed with you. That might be something that you could pursue in the future, then you start freelancing, and then there you made like, a gradual shift from more a design type person into a more like software development type person with some selected teachers. And then 2019 You landed your first job because somebody had to meet up just set a meeting or organize yourself, actually, Hey, man, you're ready, just go for it and just see what happens. And then yeah, all of a sudden, you're a software developer. Yeah. And that's, that's just three and a half years ago. And now you work at at quite a big company, I think, title for those who are not familiar with that they they make also a music app. And what way are they different besides the audio quality? Unknown: Well, the not to bash on Spotify or any similar music apps. But title does pay out artists quite a bit more. Compared to some apps. The major idea behind title is that it is either as an artist own app, and that is why they pay out a bit more to the artists because I'll focus on that. And Jay Z is one of the major owners of the app, and now with four, and now the recent acquisition from block or sorry to square now as block. Now, they are the major shareholder. But other than the sound quality, and the thing out artists more is just focusing on the art of the music itself, not just the delivery of the music, but also focusing on bit more on selling the arts, that is the music. So not sure how to put that into words exactly. But it's definitely something that I felt drawn towards when I was reading about it and everything, how it's not just a platform, but it's more of a they have a mission in a way. So that's something that definitely drew me in. Jeroen Leenarts: And what are your plans for for this year. And after that, of course, continuing your job, but any other things that you are dreaming about? Or that you want to start working towards? Unknown: Yeah, definitely, it was something that I really want to try and focus on in special this year. And that's like one of the, I guess, like, you have to have some of your New Year's resolution type of thing. But for 22, I definitely decided I wanted to try and focus on indie development as much as I can next to my day job. Because, again, focusing on that, that my initial idea how I do reasoning, why I moved from job to job and from professional to professional was because I actually wanted to have my own product that I will cherish and nurture and develop and modify as needed. And it seems that just now I realized that answer to all that could be in the development and creating my own app or apps and then maintaining them and just trying to find my spot in the market, basically. Yeah, so I already started on that path. And just recently I released an unsafe. Unsafe is the name. It is not I'll say, which is like, safe cracker app on your watch, because when I saw the crown the UX behind the crown control on the Apple Watch. I felt I wanted to make something that's like safe related. So I bought that game, which had a decent, decent, decent launch, which showed me that there is room to it is possible to make it as an indie developer. But of course, it's quite a bit of work. But yeah, that my plan is definitely to try and focus on moving towards in the development as much as I can in this year. Jeroen Leenarts: Oh, and because unsafe. That's what show a specific app, right? Unknown: Yeah, it was Watrous Pacific. And the whole idea behind it was because it was we can play it on your watch. And when you rotate little, little circles, unlock the safe, the vibrate, and the vibrate a bit different on once know that sweet spot when you're when you're in the sweet spot on the safe. And that was my only and my main idea behind it. And when I made it, the first question that I got from loads of people was like, Hey, can I play it on my iPhone as well? Like, yeah, you can, but it's not as fun but again, so many people wanted it. And then so many people prefer it because it's so much bigger and you can use actually like your finger to like move the dial basically. So I just decided okay, let me like for iPhone, but then I ported it to quickly. So even though the reviews are fairly good, right now, I definitely realized that I wanted to do injustice and really make it a proper game on the iPhone. So now I'm currently in the process of doing just that broad rifle app as Jeroen Leenarts: well. And when is your next big thing that you're going to be launching? Unknown: Well, my next I want to say big thing Whether it's I do have an app that I was working on for a while I have several apps I was working on for a while. But like, like any developer, I just build them up to 90% and then move to something, something else. So I have a budget, daily budget tracking app, because that's something that I wanted to have for myself, and then identify something that was really working for me because I wanted something really, really simple. And that's why I'm saying it's not a big app, because it's a fairly simple app. But it's something that I definitely still use today. And so my next app is a budget tracking app, then accessibility assistance type of app, which will allow developers to input to work with accessibility a lot easier and faster. And just to make it a bit more streamlined, and some swift UI views. And I have also have one another game in mind, which I don't want to talk about right now. Because it's such an interesting, and it really is an interesting idea for an app that I really feel. At least I wish that that will be my main and the only app that I will be working on for my in the developer career. And hopefully, that app turns out to be something that will be able to sustain me and my family or for the foreseeable future, it will definitely that's the dream, basically, we'll definitely make all my dreams come true in a way. Jeroen Leenarts: Sounds like you have some plans for this year. I mean, is there anything that we that we've got to talk about, or I think we covered pretty much everything right now. Unknown: We cover like quite a bit of my history, and I don't, it's always hard for me to put things into perspective, like, Oh, when did what happened? Or? Yeah, the whole chronological thing? Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, but it's, that's fine. I think I think we got a picture of that. That's, that's clear enough. And what I really liked about your story is that it's, you kind of got like, off to a strange start, because you didn't really know what you want to do. But once you found the thing that worked for you, you were able to gain focus. And once you had the focus, then things started happening and things started happening quite quickly. And in a good way, you could add, and it's really cool to see that, that even though you were like completely on track to be like someone who is like a design person, at some point, you made a switch. And you were able to to realign yourself with some new goals and and make a big career switch out of it's actually and hack now you're even just like two and a half years in as an iOS developer. And I think like five years ago, if you would have asked you or some of your close friends, or maybe close family, they wouldn't have imagined you being at the spot where you are right now. And I think that's, that's very cool to see. And I think there's some more cool stuff going to be happening in your future. At least that's my guess. And let's hope for that. Right. Unknown: Yeah, I definitely hope for that as well. And I definitely agree that I remember on my one of the meetups, when I was waiting for other people to come in. I remember a friend coming in like, oh, like, hey, like you're here for the meetup. And I'm like, Yeah, but are you sure like you're in the right meetup? was like, yeah, the design meetup and all that. And we're like, no, it's like the Swift like is programming. It was like, really? Europe programming. I like when that happened. So he was so so surprised. And I was like, yeah, like, why not? Because I never. I think all those things happen now, although things changed that much. Because I never, this is something that I really want people to remember. Or if there's anything good that I can say, like in this whole hour of just talking, talking is that nothing is too. There's no step that you can take that it's too weird or bad, or like something Oh, that's not for me, like whatever he wants to make for you. It is for you. If you want to change your careers to this or that or you can always try like if you don't make it or succeed like too, too fast or like a time that works for you. You're like that's a different thing. But there's no limits, basically. Jeroen Leenarts: And especially with software, there literally are no limits. That's very true. And well with those words salmon I think we landed at bots. That's quite a nice spot to, to close things off. I want to thank you for your time because we've spent close to an hour talking to each other. hope see you sometime in person for sure. Unknown: Yeah, that will be quite, quite fun to do for sure. And thank you so much for having me. It's my first ever podcast kind of thing. So I mean, it was really, really fun looking back and remembering all those things.