Do iOS Speaker: Monika Mateska

Jeroen: Hi. And welcome to the first interview with one of the speakers of the U.S. Conference happening in Amsterdam this November. It's Monica with Jessica, and she's Where are you from? Monika: down from Macedonia. O'Neill. Jeroen: That's a nice part of Europe, actually. And I'm hoping to visit it someday in some capacity. just to get things started, do I was speaking there. It's going to be one of your first speaking engagements outside of Macedonia, right? Monika: Yes, that's right. It's going to be one of my biggest public talks so far. So I'm also super excited for this opportunity. Jeroen: So but any, any concerns or apprehension or any worries or what, what, what's your take on that? Monika: Well, I'm, as I mentioned, super excited. So to be honest, I have quite some mixed feelings. I really want to prepare myself well for this opportunity. But yes, I hope everything will go great. As expected. Jeroen: Well, that's, that's one thing that I can do for any speaker at Davos, and that's to hook you up with my co-host, Daniel Steinberg, because I just happen to know that he really enjoys giving some feedback, giving some tips, just helping, uh, aspiring conference speakers out to to get it right the first time. So, who knows, Maybe we can, uh, can hook up with Daniel, and then we can help you, like, get even better at, at your first presentation. Big public presentation because you've presented before, because you've always been busy. In the last year with a cocoa heads meet up in Macedonia right? Monika: Yes, that's right. Presented there a couple of times. And because I have we have really great community in Macedonia and they're very supportive. So our plan is so once I have finished up all the preparations for my talk talk, if inside the presentation for the community, have some feedback and then hopefully be prepared Jeroen: Yeah, Monika: for Jeroen: I. Monika: a bigger audience. Jeroen: You're going for Monika: Yeah. Jeroen: the practice. Makes perfect approach. That's a good one, actually, because just running through your talk, actually doing it with a life audience that is supportive and also hopefully giving some, uh, some feedback that you can work with afterwards, that's probably the best thing that you can do. And that's actually, I guess one of the purposes of, of the Cocoa has meetups as well, right. To help people do their first talks, to share experience, share knowledge, to interact with each other, to get to know each other, to be able to network. Monika: Yes, exactly. We are aiming for that. We are also supporting the other people from the community to speak, to speak, have some talks and be prepared for bigger opportunities. Jeroen: Cool. So, software development, right. Um, how long have you been doing that? Like, uh, as a day job, professionally? Monika: Almost four years, but specifically in Eias, I've been working three years so far and my main topics are augmented reality. I have little bit of experience with enterprise applications and in the last couple of months also a mobile banking application. So it was quite something right Jeroen: So. But that's quite a varied exposure that you're you're getting across to the iOS frameworks that are available. So what kind of company are you working at right now? Because you already told me offline that you were, uh, moving to a next, uh, employer. Monika: as well in the last three years where I actually got all my experience and this development and I was working in etc. I'm actually currently working there. So we have multiple services that we provide that provides banking services. Also, as I mentioned in Enterprise, our applications and we do have customer service. And yes, as you mentioned, I'm moving to a new chapter of my love life. I'm starting from October in, you know, which is a company based in Copenhagen. So I'll also do a relocation Jeroen: Oh, Monika: there. Jeroen: So you're actually moving to another part of Europe for your work? I Monika: Yes, Jeroen: that Monika: a colder Jeroen: and Monika: one Jeroen: that. That's new information. Yeah, it's. It's. You're moving north quite significantly compared to Macedonia. So what is a typical summer like in Macedonia temperature wise? Monika: going up to 45 maximum, let's Jeroen: Uh, Monika: say, on the hottest Jeroen: ouch. Monika: days. Jeroen: That's. That's quite Monika: Yeah. Jeroen: warm, actually. I always had a lot of air conditioning in Macedonia. Always. It's just people deal with it. Monika: Know, we live with air conditioning throughout winter and summer. Jeroen: Yeah. So it's Monika: We have extreme temperatures. Jeroen: also Monika: You? Jeroen: in the winter, it's really cold, actually. Monika: Yeah. I actually look at the statistics, and it's even colder than. Than Copenhagen in winter. Jeroen: Mm hmm. Monika: So it's kind of like, interesting for me Jeroen: Uh, Monika: to Jeroen: well, Monika: go somewhere with different temperatures Jeroen: I do know that, uh, that Denmark and Copenhagen is a very nice place to to, to live, uh, in Europe. So, uh, looking forward to hear from you what your experiences there. Of course, relocating is never easy. Um, but you've mentioned you've been doing software development for four years. Three of those have been iOS development. So that's been a year of software development that you've been doing before that. And then there's something Monika: as Jeroen: else that you did before that probably some studies related to software development or. What's your backstory there? Monika: I've started my university for a computer science engineering at 2017. So as for the second part of my second year of studies, I have started with my first experience in web development, specifically in Angular, and then I moved to DOT not so full stack development. Then. I mean, in the meantime, I was also studying taking my courses. So I also did Erasmus after that experience. My first experience of work, I took some break and afterwards I started new internship where I was introduced for it with us. And since then I'm working at my current company Jeroen: So is it correct in my understanding that of those four years you've been working professionally, that first year was during your studies, or was it like right after or. Monika: right after the first Jeroen: Okay, Monika: year. So in my second Jeroen: Yeah. Monika: year of studies Jeroen: Okay. So and the, uh, the education is it was it a three year program? Four or five years? Monika: it's four Jeroen: Okay. Monika: years. Jeroen: Yes, It's a patch. Bachelor of Master. What is it? Monika: It's bachelors here in Macedonia. The programme to study program at university goes four plus Jeroen: Mm Monika: one, Jeroen: hmm. Monika: which is one of my three Jeroen: Yeah. Monika: year. Yeah, the bachelor's Jeroen: So. Monika: is for. Jeroen: But what made you decide to, um, as a young girl, to get started with computers and then actually come to the conclusion? Let's make. Let's make it my profession. Let's make, uh, let's make money doing software development. That that's like a big leap that you have to take right? Monika: Yes. Well, I've always been interesting in solving problems. I loved mathematics. I still do. So I was introduced with enough science, computer science from high school. Luckily, we had a really good professor which prepared us, and that was my first spark of true. When I was introduced with this area of science. And since high school, I knew that I really wanted to continue my educational path and computer science. And I just applied for a place at this, you know, at the university where I was studying. So I never had any regrets since then. Jeroen: well, but there are a few things to unpack what you just described there, because mathematics, that's, uh, quite a specific subject matter to. To be excited about and to be interested in. What is it about mathematics that, um, makes you happy, that you find enjoyable, that you give, uh, that that makes you want to spend some time and energy on that? Because mathematics, to me, it was like, Do I have to do this? Yes. Okay. Monika: Yeah. So there are few reasons for the German path. The dual path. First is that you get to solve a problem that you didn't know the solution for at the beginning, no matter how complicated it is, you start from the beginning where you don't know probably anything and then step by step you spread your knowledge and apply it to the problem solving things. The second is that there is no pure definition of how you solve the problems. So there's always another approach. There is never the best approach, which is kind of like everything in daily life that we're applying to. So it's just cohesion of many things that's don't make me happier. It's basically I'm using my brain. Whenever I use my brain, I feel super empowered to do many other things Jeroen: So Monika: further. Jeroen: and and this enjoyment with mathematics, how does that transfer over to software development? Because I can imagine that's when you start with mathematics. Are the problems and problem sets that you're working with. Start small, but they can become really big. Uh, but that's also with software development. You start small, but at some point you're just like going through lines of code without end. And sometimes you want to pull your hair out because you don't see the solution yet. Monika: Yes, I do believe that you probably have to be good at lists in mathematics because everything in the computer science is based on it. So all the problems, like also the algorithms that are applied in everyday problems throughout working as a programmer are based on mathematical problems. So at the end, I think everything relies on the core definitions of mathematic mathematical terms. So that's how I also started in computer science, because we had a lot of subjects in the first year of university discrete mathematics, calculus and so on that we had to pass in order to continue with the other years. So that was basically both of them that I knew that I have to apply my knowledge in mathematics and that I can continue also with some coding Jeroen: the logic that you use for software development is very specific fields or part of of mathematics. Right. But Boolean algebra or what's called with Moore's Law and all that stuff, is that, um, no, that's not. That's something else. Oh, I'm confused now. Um. Monika: and discrete. Yeah, it's the Valine one. And then but then we have Trigonometric, which is something that I really didn't like to study. And whenever we got to that point I was like, No, I will just study for the exam. And the moment that I had to apply the trigonometric, I actually took an online course again to go back from the core of the problems, because the funny part is that I really had to apply this functions or when I got to augmented reality computing and solving this kind of 3D Jeroen: Yeah. Monika: sphere Jeroen: All the. Monika: problems. Jeroen: All the. All the matrix related maths that you have to do. It's like I was like, constantly. What column do I multiply with what row again, it was like so confusing Monika: Exactly. Jeroen: and it's like, Oh, identity matrix, what does this thing do? And it's like, but that's just one one in it. What, what's it, why is it useful just getting that. Uh, yeah, it's been, it's been, it's been a journey. Let's keep it at that. Um, so from, from a young age, you, you applied yourself to, to, to basically problem solving. Were you like a puzzler? AS Yeah, as a young girl, or was it like, uh, Monika: More like solving my homeworks. And more than that. Jeroen: the homework itself is challenging enough then. Okay, Monika: Yeah, Jeroen: Sounds like you had some good teachers over the years, and that's, uh, that's always good and always very helpful to. To run into the right people at the right time. Uh, when you are developing yourself as a person in life, because this, there's so many opportunities to do the stupid thing when you grow up, which sometimes you just have to do, right? I'm Monika: always. Jeroen: okay. Always. Okay, now I'm concerned. Um, so, uh, you've started with a computer science, did some dot nets and web development and then started iOS development. But what about iris development was the thing that, uh, that pulled you in that made you decide, okay, this is something I want to do more. Uh, and probably the situation you were in, it was project based work that you were doing. So at some point you had to advocate for yourself to indicate, yes, I want to do more iOS and less dot net and, uh, web related stuff, please. So what was it for you that made you decide to to head into this direction? Monika: Oh, let's first talk about language. I started with Swift and it's so clean and pure that there was nothing that I didn't understand about Jeroen: Oh. Monika: the language Jeroen: Oh. What version of Swift are you talking about right now? Monika: for Jeroen: Oh, Monika: probably Jeroen: okay. Okay. Yeah. Because I'm, I'm, I'm someone who has like a Java development background, but Java development from way back in the day. So I started with like Java version three or something. A to me, seeing the development of Swift and having seen the development of Java over the years, I see parallels there. And I think if you look at Swift right now as a language, in a way there are still pure and nice aspects about it. But, but some areas are maybe a little bit icky that you think like, I wish. Monika: for example, Jeroen: Hmm. Monika: for Jeroen: Well, Monika: example, Jeroen: yeah. Oh, now, now you put me on the spot and that's that's a challenge. What I, wh I find confusing with, uh, Swift is some parts of the syntax, you know, uh, because I'm from Objective-C, so you had to block syntax and there was some very creatively named websites to help you remember the syntax. And you have the same websites for, uh, for Swift as well. But with block syntax, there's so many ways that you can basically do the same thing. You can do it with like implicit arguments, you can like name the arguments or you can just, instead of throwing a block at a function, you just throw a function at a function and it's like, uh, I'm like, okay. And that's and then you start thinking, so, okay, so, um, so a block and I'm probably confusing the naming here because I'm from Objective-C. It is in fact sort of like a function, but it isn't, Uh, and it's, I don't know, I get confused at some point. I do find programming swift enjoyable, but it took me a while to, to wean myself off of Objective-C because I really, I really liked the verbose, the ferocity of Objective-C. It's like impossible to type without code completion, but it's, you know, it read like poetry, just the DeLong function and message names that you were looking at. And with Swift, uh, it's sometimes I think they want to make things a little bit too terse so that it's like they want to, like, really make it short and I'm like, Yeah, come on and just be explicit, because then I can still understand what's going on here, like, uh, half a year from now, because you sometimes have these people that chain functions and maps and compact maps and then like combine and all that stuff together and it's like, uh, what are you doing on one line all together now? Okay, so how are you going to, how, how are you ever going to debug this? Uh, and that's, that's not that, that's still my syntax, but it is one of the things that I think, yeah, that's a perfect opportunity for people to shoot themselves in the foot and regret their choices, uh, down the line. I think. Monika: Yes, with the functional programming Jeroen: Yeah. Monika: I just recalled back when I started writing Swift code, it was so cool for me that I, I actually did that in one line of code. I did the compact map, I Jeroen: Yeah, Monika: did filter, Jeroen: we're Monika: and so many other Jeroen: all guilty Monika: things. Jeroen: of that. And Monika: Exactly. Jeroen: while Monika: But then you realize, Jeroen: you're typing Monika: yeah, Jeroen: it. Monika: you realize it. So Jeroen: Yeah, yeah, it's. Monika: yeah, Jeroen: I've got to look at me, what I can do and just one line and then, like, just even the next day you look at it and go like, I don't get this Monika: no, Jeroen: anymore. Let's split it up. So. But. But Monika: exactly. Jeroen: you like to, you like the purity of, of swift as a language that's probably because of the, the functional origins that are a part of the history of um of Swift. While it is a imperative language with a lot of functional aspects added to it, um, so was a sidestep for me. So carry on. So you like to have purity of swift and and the cleanliness. What else? So you get started with Swift and then you want to move into iris development. So we sidestepped just a tiny little bit Monika: So at the moment I started Swift too. I was really, really new. Like I started at 2020 Jeroen: and broken. Monika: exactly Jeroen: Yeah, Monika: 13. Read about so many books, Jeroen: yeah, Monika: but maybe I was I don't I don't consider myself lucky, but it was super fun to write like code for UA Jeroen: yeah. Monika: and then see it instantly Jeroen: So are you a person that likes to, like, uh, work with the simulator to run your code? Are you or do you use, um, what's it called again? The the thing in Xcode preview. Monika: preview. I feel guilty for the old projects that I work on. I deleted all Jeroen: Oh, Monika: the previous Jeroen: you were like a deletion is Monika: because Jeroen: thing. Monika: at Yeah, with the old ones. So whenever I start the new project I try to keep it as clean as possible to write all the marks Jeroen: Mm Monika: that I know that I Jeroen: hmm. Monika: will need to put in this use so I can use the previous because it's I'm in Swift Apple actually there are trying to push people to use previous and they are giving so many more capabilities with the previous. We're just kind of set to not use them but nowadays actually this happened today. But I understood that still there are some drawbacks on using previous. For example, if you use a custom color and then you use a that you create a static viable for the color to be initialized from your assets. It's not working. In the previous. Jeroen: Gosh darn Monika: Yeah. Jeroen: it. And Monika: Yeah, Jeroen: then you're sitting there and broken me again. Monika: exactly. So there are still some flaws you're using the previous, but of course there are some and it is much more easy Jeroen: Mm hmm. Monika: to develop X, especially when working with you to use the previous Jeroen: Okay, so. Monika: apple are trying to make make it easier for Jeroen: So Monika: us. Jeroen: to recap, and I'm going to. I'm going to take a shortcut here when you got started with iOS development, um, the big language migrations were over because you got on board around SWIFT for time frame. You should have tried Swift one and two and three. It was glorious. Monika: So Jeroen: The the work you had to do was just upgrade to exclude project. Uh, and you got started when like Swift UI was sort of like becoming a thing in Iris 13. It was still broken to bits, but 14 it got a lot better. And now in, uh, 15 and what, what I was personally I was going to 60 now or do we have 16 already Monika: 17 Jeroen: And we had seven. Monika: better Jeroen: Oh Monika: version. Jeroen: man. Yeah. But it's getting, it's kind of quite good now right. Because I've Monika: Yeah. Jeroen: been doing some development with Swift UI as well. It's just like recreate a threat like user interface from the, the new, uh, social platform. And it's actually quite easy to just get results and just make it look good. And then you just look at what the time spend was and you got, well, it was actually quite easy. This, this wood, this used to take me like three or four days and I just did this in an afternoon and that's what I really like about Swift UI. But then you still have to put all the back logic behind it. Um, Monika: This Jeroen: so to recap, it was basically swift UI being in a somewhat usable sorry swift being in a somewhat useful state and swift UI becoming a thing that made you giddy of excitement and made you think like, yes, this is what I want to do more. Monika: exactly. And then was the moment when I was introduced in augmented reality world and that was really interesting because as I mentioned, there were so many things that I wasn't ready for and I really like challenges. So I said, okay, let's see where it is going to take me. So I started to learn bit by a bit old mathematical part that I've mentioned the trigonometry, all the idea behind augmented reality spatial computing as Apple are introducing it right now. So that's how I still stay. It's very interesting given two years after that. And yeah, right now is just something that I know that I want to be, if not the best, I will try. I'm trying to be the best in that. So now yeah, now is still super interesting to me. And Apple are interesting. Always new things every year. And I think they're trying the developer, they're keeping the developer speed easier Jeroen: Mm hmm. Monika: with new stuff. Jeroen: Yeah. They they they they're launching a new platform again, Right? Something with vision in it. So did you get your hands on one already or not? Monika: Yes, of course. Jeroen: And is it as good as they make it to be? Or are you not at liberty to share any information about the an NDA covered thing that you have to like use in a darkened room without any windows and you have to lock it up before it leaves the room again? Monika: Exactly. I am not able to share and the experience Jeroen: Yeah. Monika: out of that. They like a room, but I can always share my experience with writing Jeroen: Yeah, Monika: the code, reading gold, the Apple developer documentation. So far, Jeroen: yeah, Monika: all the posts about it. And it's been interesting. There are many things that Apple have been introducing in the last two years which relative to reality Jeroen: yeah. Monika: kit. But then there are so many new things, of course, because they have new devices with so many new capabilities, so many new terms, let's say that way for developers that haven't been in EXR development. Jeroen: Mm hmm. Monika: So not just augmented reality, but virtual reality. So it's a very exciting period, Jeroen: Yeah, It's it's a it's an NDA. Uh, covert and, uh, minefield that you that you're passing through right now. So let's move on to the next topic. Um, your talk at do I was, uh, how mature is the concept already that you're working on. Monika: to be honest. The idea has been there since June 5th, but I know what I want to talk about. I still haven't started to write down all the thoughts that are in my head. I'm going tomorrow on vacation. I have full two weeks that I can focus fully on this. I know what I want to say. So it's basically all the experience so far that it's out of this developer lap that I am not allowed to talk about, but everything else that is related with vision lists as a new technology and transforming user experience, the new UX UI approach for the users. So yes, basically it's mostly related with where we can where we can apply this new technologies. What did changes in everyday consumption? Do we really have to put everything that we knew so far A and learn differently new technology? Or is it just adoption of Jeroen: Mm. Monika: the Apple ecosystem technology is as they're always trying to keep up Jeroen: Yeah. So basically, anything about fish and OS that is available in the, um, SDK and SDK documentation, Monika: exactly. Jeroen: that stuff that you can talk about and that you plan to talk about during your talk at 2 hours. And, um, it's going to be like a really technical talk or is it more like, uh, a viewing at, like the possibilities of the SDK or what are you, what are your, what are your plans there? Monika: I am starting from my experience as being attendee to so many conferences so far, and as I'm recalling back to all the talks, I always remember the most nontechnical ones. So when I think about it twice, I really don't want to make it super technical because the idea is not to present to people how they can do reality kit view because that's something that they will open up will developer documentation and they will see. But mostly is the idea behind it. The concept of is aware this technology's going to go so I will try to keep it as non-technical as possible even though there are a little bit technical terms because that's something that everyone is interested it interesting in. I hope, as developers attending this conference, but still I really want to. It's the moment where I, I will present a code snippet because I don't think that's the right way or a way to share the knowledge and just a lot. For once, no one talk. Jeroen: So you could say that your intention right now, because things can always change. Of course. And we will at some point, uh, post an outline on the website of do I was your intention is to provide a talk that people can go to that they can watch you present and then when they go out of the talk, they are inspired and empowered by some knowledge about what could potentially be created with fishing OS And this new device that is still very much under NDA. Monika: Yes, Basically, I want to reach the greatest sum up of everything called capabilities of the device. So developers will kind of like think about, yes, I can use this capability of the device to create some simple app at the beginning. So my idea is to introduce the developers to all the New world. Jeroen: All right, sounds good. So I'm really looking forward to getting your outline. Um, but of course, make sure that you take your vacation and that you like, uh, get yourself ready for your new job in somewhere in October, as you mentioned, and we'll get to meet again in, in Amsterdam in November. Um, what are some of your hobbies outside of software development? What is, what are some fun bits about you that not a lot of people on one online might know about you? Monika: I always say it's yoga, but I would lie if I say it now because I haven't been attending for more than a month and a half. But the thing is that I don't mention is actually, I do love fashion. So me and my sister and my mother, we have like a fashion atelier where we basically create, create design creations. And then there are this creations are executed. So we have basically like an online store Jeroen: Okay. Monika: for it. Jeroen: And you make those creations yourself with your mom or your sister, or you get somebody Monika: Yes, Jeroen: you actually create. It's yourself with fabric and wow, that's, Monika: Yes, Jeroen: that's that's quite involved doing that correctly. If I see you in one of your own creations by any chance, because I've seen you at, at a few conferences now. Monika: possibly. But Jeroen: Yeah, it's hard to remember. Monika: I'm trying to to keep myself as cool as possible when it comes to the I to community. Jeroen: Yeah. Monika: So it's usually just a T-shirt and fence. Jeroen: Yeah, that's, that's always good to wear some clothes, at least, because otherwise it would be a bit weird. Um, so, um, where do people find you online. Monika: I use Twitter X, the Jeroen: Yeah, Monika: new Jeroen: I'm. I'm still Monika: name. Jeroen: confused as well. Monika: I'm not that active. Jeroen: Mm hmm. Monika: I will try to veer. It's whenever I have some spare time. I do it with some things. Then I use LinkedIn, Jeroen: Mm hmm. Monika: um, where I share other bits of my. I do experience Jeroen: Yeah. Monika: and probably that's all I tried to stay in to use as few platforms as possible. Jeroen: Mm hmm. Monika: Like I don't use Mastodon, I don't use threats because it's just too much Jeroen: Yeah. Monika: time to be honest. Jeroen: Yeah. Otherwise, you're just constantly scrolling all the time instead of doing other things. Right. Okay, Monika: Yes, exactly. Jeroen: cool. Um, I think. I think we're doing that. We've got everything covered that we need. Um, do you have any questions, by any chance? Monika: How excited are you for the conference? Jeroen: Oh, it's right now. Just a lot of work. It's like, wow. It's. Well, it's actually quiet now because it's summertime. Uh, so up to this month, it was a lot of conversations with the venue and making sure that the catering was, like, done. And then I needed to, uh, get a sponsor on board for the dinner that we're planning on the first evening of the conference. So, Hey, everybody, if you get two tickets, dinner is on me on the first evening. It's included in your ticket price. And, um, yeah, of course I have to. I did some website updates with, uh, with with which the funds help, and now it's a bit of a quiet time. And I also noticed that in the, in the ticket sales, because right now we're at about 50% of the tickets are sold, which is quite good actually. And I'm expecting and hoping that once the call for paper ends, that's at the end of August. So that's a few weeks from now when we record this, uh, that beginning September, uh, speakers will start to be announced on, on the website and on our socials that then the, uh, ticket sales will basically go through the roof. Um, because,uh , yeah, I still need to sell a few more tickets because you budget for things. So it's, it's, it's spreadsheets all the time, but, uh, it's coming together. It's, I've already reached the point that if I am able to, like, not spend too much money on extra things, uh, right now that I will be able to, to, to keep things net positive so that, uh, so that's, uh, so that Monika: Good to Jeroen: said, Monika: hear Jeroen: at the Monika: that. Jeroen: financial committee at home stays happy because, uh, the first thing that my wife told me when I, uh, told her like, hey, I'm doing a conference and all the financial risk is on me. This time she was like, Say what? And no. And I had to, like, explain it to her and also plan out financially with her. Okay, this is what I'm going to do. This is the risk that I'm running. Uh, and because that's the thing, i, um, the conference was organized by a company two times over the first and the second edition. Uh, I was working at this company, so they basically, uh, told me, Yeah, go ahead, have fun, and whatever happens will pay. Uh, the third and fourth editions. Uh, the, uh, the assets were transferred over to the Coke that's now community. And fortunately, the coke that's in our community is, is doing well, uh, with sponsorships. I, it's not, it's not a gold mine in any way, but we have enough sponsorship proceeds that we were able to take a risk with the conference because, yeah, we, we basically calculate, okay, if we have like a minimum success at least uh, the uh, the uh, the, the nonprofit won't go bankrupt. So we retired two times over. But the, the second time under Coca House stewardship, uh, we were running into the situation that if you want to make the event bigger, then we had to start fulfilling all kinds of legal and tax obligations to the Dutch government with a non profit. So we basically came to the agreement that, okay, it might be better to separate after the, uh, the conference again, but then where do you put it? And that's the step when I was, uh, after some thought and deliberation that I was like, yeah, let's, uh, let's take this on on my own. And fortunately, people have to be very helpful, but it's, I still remember the, the thing with the, a conference in, uh, in Denver, uh, I can't remember the name right now, but they actually went, uh, went south with like selling too few tickets. And that was right after Corona, uh, COVID, and, uh, they really had to do a social fund drive to able to actually close the book on that conference. And that's a situation I never want to be in. Um, so yeah, it's, I don't lose sleep over it just yet, but it's, uh, it takes a, it takes a lot of cycles in my brain every day right now. So and I'm hoping that, uh, next month and the month after and at least, uh, the financial concerns are a bit less, uh, and that it's more focused on, on, on execution of the, of the event. So getting the speakers on board, making sure that flights are arranged, that people are put up in, uh, in hotels, that they know where they need to go. Um, any questions that people might have that are a ticket holder because you do get a lot of email, uh, at some point with people having all kinds of questions and it's, it's, it's about really small things, two really big things. Um, a small thing is like, hey, will there be a vegetarian option at any food offerings? That's a simple one. Of course that will be, uh, but it gets more complicated if you have somebody has a very specific, uh, diet request. So if things need to be kosher or things need to be halal or whatever, uh, specific, uh, uh, dietary requirements, somebody might have for whatever reason, uh, could be medical, could be religious. Uh, that's, that's, that's already like a step up. And then there's even stuff beyond that. Sometimes you just get an email and you're like, I don't even know where to begin with this. How do I respond to this? But that's of course, also probably usually a bit more sensitive. So that's not something I want to share too much about, but it's a lot of fun. And um, my wife is still okay with me doing this, so I hope she stays that way. Monika: That's the good part. Jeroen: Exactly. Well, Monica, I look forward to meeting you in person in November. Uh, you'll be at my place that time around, because the previous time that we met, that one was. That wasn't in Swift Leeds. Or was it in, in Turin? Monika: I know it was last year on the US Jeroen: Oh, Monika: as well, though some financial Jeroen: oh yeah. Turin was before that even. Wow. That's, Monika: as Jeroen: that's Monika: it was in Jeroen: yeah, Monika: summer during Jeroen: yeah. It's too much with heroes. There was, uh, there was, uh, a colleague of mine that was a colleague of yours, uh, in his previous role. Uh, he introduced us and then we went, went away again, and then it was do I was. And you got excited about organizing coconuts meet up, and all of a sudden you're speaking at Monika: this. Jeroen: a conference, and this is how things happened, right? Monika: It's amazing. Jeroen: All right, well, see you in November and, and notifications. And, uh, let me know if there's any developments with your, uh, with your talk, outlining concepts and if there's anything that you need help with, make sure to to reach out, because, uh, I'm more than happy to help, uh, with anything that you need to in that regard. Monika: Sure we'll do Thank you very much for your support and good luck with all the rest for the conference and whenever you need some help, extra hints on the website or whatever you need, feel free to reach out as well. Jeroen: And now it's stopping, and it's.