Kim Arnett, senior iOS developer and public speaker

Jeroen Leenarts: So hi, everybody. Welcome to the extra special edition with Kim Arnett. As you might remember, she interviewed me a little while ago. So now it's my turn to interview her. So, Kim, Hi, how are you doing today? Kim Arnett: Hey, I'm doing good. How are you? Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, I'm good, actually, because I'm interviewing you. So that's a lot easier for me actually. Kim Arnett: And easier for me to. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah. Yeah. Now you can just do talking and not listening, right? Kim Arnett: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I'm good at that part. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay, um, so let's get started. You're like, you're living in Michigan. You're an iOS developer. You tend to do a lot of things with stickers. And I don't know, I don't know where to start. So let's just start at the beginning. How did you get into Intertek? And how did you get involved with computers? Kim Arnett: Sure. So growing up, I was, let's see, my extent of knowledge of computers was like games. I had some PC games. There was like Barbie riding club, which I fangirled over hard because I loved horses growing up I showed showed so that one was super fun. Math blasters was super fun. I had some older sisters. So we had, I think it was called like scooters Magic Castle, that one is memorable to me as well. So I definitely was always interested in them growing up. But I never really imagined myself as like, I don't know, a pewter whiz, like, right. So let's see, fast forward. graduated high school, we had a Oh, it was, it was kind of like an intro to programming. But it wasn't really an intro to programming. It was like, we made a website with HTML. So that was really interesting. In high school, you know, to have that experience, especially because MySpace was coming out and that kind of stuff. So very good time to learn HTML and kind of, you know, toe dip into that world. But I still didn't know that was programming. So let's fast forward a couple more years into college, I was actually pursuing a math major, because I, in all honestly had no idea what to do what to do with my life. So I was always really good at math. And I thought maybe, you know, I could be a teacher, or something along those lines, and really help kids kind of just get it. Because, you know, I was inspired by some of the professor, not professors, teachers that I had growing up, that helped me just get it. And there were some that helped me hate math. So I have both ends of the spectrum. So I was kind of interested in that. And in doing so I ended up taking a intro to programming course, which was like a gen ed a lot. toril is what they're called. And we remember, optional class, like to like, kind of fill in the spaces, right. So I ended up taking internal programming. And it was really weird experience. Because the first day I did not realize it was like a classroom setting in a lab setting. So the first day I walk into the classroom, but we were actually supposed to be at the lab. And there was a guy sitting at a desk, and I asked him if this was intro to programming, and he just started hype of hyperventilating. Like, oh my God, here we go. And then the second time I saw him, I was like, Oh, hey, cuz I knew nobody in this, you know, field or major or anything. Like, everyone was completely new people I've never seen before. So the next time I saw him, you know, I said, Hey, thinking, we've at least talked before. And then he just started speaking in French, so my friendship was not welcome. Okay. But yeah, super interesting. So yeah, I, I don't know, I just kept my head down. That was like, Okay, I'll just do what I'm supposed to do and not worry about it. And about halfway through the class, the professor pulled me aside and he was like, you know, you should consider changing your major to computer science. You have a knack for this. And I was like, I don't know. You know, this class is really weird. Like, nobody will talk to me. I really have no business being in here like everyone. seemed to have built their own computer. At some point, everyone knew how to get rid of viruses. And I was the one that destroyed three computers with viruses. So Jeroen Leenarts: you were collecting them in attention, Kim Arnett: absolutely. MSN all the way. I just really fell out of place. And I didn't feel welcome. But the more I thought about it, and I was also a single mom at the time, which I've talked about before, um, other areas. So the more I thought about it, and the more I looked into it, I realized that computer programming pays extremely well. And that's a really great future for myself and a way to take care of my daughter. And then, you know, I also thought about the aspect of creating, I really liked creating things. I felt really good when I got things to show up on the screen. So yeah, I took one more class, just to make sure before I changed my major for the 85th time. And I fell in love. Jeroen Leenarts: So you mentioned already that you that you're a single mom. So was it challenging to do an education while being a mom? Kim Arnett: Yeah, do not recommend. Really. It was incredibly difficult, but in my mind, I didn't have another choice. I got, right. So how I got through it is I utilize every resource available to me. You know, I was living with my parents, they would help me immensely with babysitting. At one point, I had an internship and I was paying a babysitter to come to the house and then help out so I could also get homework done. And I wasn't you know, expending my parents. The responsibility? Yeah, it was extraordinarily tough. There were many nights I was up till 2am. Just studying, just doing homework, just getting my stuff done for the next day. And then you wake up at five and do it all over again. So yeah, it was incredibly difficult, incredibly hard to get through. But it was so rewarding. Once I finally did. Jeroen Leenarts: You persevered? And you came through, right? Kim Arnett: Yeah. Yeah. Success story, I think. Yeah. So I mean, I think about it frequently. And I think about it's so easy to give up. You know, there was one point I was pursuing a, it's like one of those medical degrees that you could get in like, two years. And just I think it was something with CAT scans, or I don't even remember, pluck that part out of my life, out of my mind. Um, but yeah, I was, I was looking at that at one point, because it was like, what is the quickest way I can get out of school and make money? But then I realized that medical stuff is disgusting. I don't want to do. So that wasn't for me, and that's okay. It's not for everybody. But yeah, I think I think about all the routes I've could have taken to get either where I'm at, or all the different routes I would have taken, and where those would have ended up. And I'm so thankful that I stuck with it. I'm so thankful that I was able to provide a good life for my daughter, you know, is a rough couple years. Don't get me wrong. But, you know, now I'm able to pretty much give her anything she would want or would need. Not that she's totally spoiled for the record. But, you know, we got some years to make up for as well. Jeroen Leenarts: So And how old is your daughter right now? Kim Arnett: She just turned 12. Jeroen Leenarts: That yeah, that's, that's when you really get into the conversations with her energy can explain things. Yeah. So would you say that she is thankful to the choice that you've made? Kim Arnett: Um, I think, Jeroen Leenarts: as a 12 year olds can be of course, Kim Arnett: yeah, I was gonna say, I don't think she really has a clue. But, you know, she, I don't know, she sees the world a different way than I do, because she just sees it as extra time she got to live with their grandparents, you know, so that was really fun for her. And I don't think she was quite aware of all of the struggles that you know, was were going on at the time, so You know, I think she's certainly happy with her life now. But yeah, it'd be interesting to get her perspective because I, it's not really something we talk about a lot. Kind of Jeroen Leenarts: onwards and upwards. Maybe that's a conversation once she's out of school and having, having her own life. Yeah. So um, so yeah, you did your education. She did your studies. So you got your first job. How did that happen? Kim Arnett: Sure. So I graduated in December, which means that a lot of people are redoing their budgets. A lot of budgets are not approved yet. And there's not a lot of open roles because nobody graduates in December. Everyone in the US, at least, you know, companies tried to line up their open positions in the summer, because that's when a lot of graduates are graduating. It's in the spring. So yeah, it was it was really interesting. I had a few connections that I had made through my internship extravaganzas. So I did have an internship, and it was supposed to turn into a full time job. And then the budget got revoked. So then I had to start looking kind of last minute, I didn't have a lot of leeway into like, Hey, this is happening. It was just like, wow, we're really sorry. So I was panic searching about two weeks before graduation. And thankfully, the university had a career fair that they had set up. So there was a few companies, it was a full full, like you would expect, you know, because it was December, and like everything I just said. But there were enough companies to at least have conversations. Some of them were really positive. A lot of them were really negative. One company didn't even want to talk to me, because I had never heard of their company. Which was really interesting. But in hindsight, learning more about that company, as you know, I've gone through the, through my career, I am very glad to talk to me. There was another recruiter that I had gone through the internship interview process with, and I actually got two different offers through that internship. And I didn't accept either one of them, I had accepted a different one that was about 30 minutes closer to home. And he was pretty salty about it. I'm salty enough that he took my resume out of my hand and just placed it in a stack and said, Is there anything else I can do for you? And then the third company, the third company, you know, I again, like desperate single mom, just please, somebody hire me. So the third company, I was talking to the recruiter at the table. And she had said that they had this pilot or kind of a pilot program, but his professional growth program that they take in entry level developers, and you can either go down the Java track, or you can go down, they had a new mobile track. And I said, Well, I had this iOS class once. And so they were like, well, what are you interested in? I'm like, wherever you need me, really. I love it all. Jeroen Leenarts: Just get me at a keyboard. Kim Arnett: That's right. So um, they really were having trouble finding mobile developers for this program, because it was such a new technology. And not a lot of universities. Were teaching it yet. So yeah, very thankful I got into that it was a three month program. They trained us in Android, iOS, and jQuery Mobile. And then from there, they hired you out internally. So you would present the stuff that you've built through this program, to different teams within the company, and then they would pretty much select who they wanted to work with going forward. So that was really cool. It was really cool to get experience of like, what different parts of the company did, what different products they had, and that sort of thing. So yeah, I pretty much got to choose iOS, out of the gate, which was really cool, you know? Total fan of their products that I couldn't afford at the time. Everything else? So yeah, super, super interesting how all that turned out, it feels like it was kind of by chance. But I was also fortunate enough to just keep pushing towards what I enjoyed. Jeroen Leenarts: So So you got started with your first role as an iOS developer through this program? How long did you stay with this company? Kim Arnett: Good question. It was about two years. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay. And was it a good run that you had there? And did you learn a lot there? Or? And what was the reason for you to? So Let's rephrase that. So you worked there for two years? What was the reason for you decided to start looking elsewhere? Kim Arnett: Sure. So after I call it graduated from this program, I got hired into a team that was doing web development for a short stint. I didn't feel like the team was very supportive. So I immediately was like, climbing back into the other teams, like, Where can I get into iOS? So then I landed on a team with one of the other graduates, and I was doing iOS, he was doing Android. And it was, I was there for about a year and a half on that team. And it was really great. There were some senior people at the company that were willing to sit down and explain things to let me rephrase. There were senior people at the company that, you know, really valued, that there's no dumb questions. So it was really nice, having a place where I could ask anything that I came across and having a supportive environment where it was okay to get it wrong, it was okay to you know, sit down at somebody else's cube and go through the problem together. You know, I got my first toe dip into testing with that team. I learned what a proxy was, and how to kind of network the bugs and things that were going on. I thought that was like, amazing at the time. I was like, wait, you could do what and you can see it on your computer. Like that's wild. Um, so yeah, it was it was overall a really great experience. There were it was a really diverse team, too, which I didn't quite appreciate at the time, because that was normal to me, right? I, let's see i in school, there were very few women. There were very few non white people. So it was really interesting coming into this team, where they had pretty good diversity overall. So yeah, that just felt normal to me. I thought, you know, this was what a working team would look like. So yeah, I like that a lot. I decided to move on eventually, mostly because of pay. I did not get the promotion that I felt I greatly deserved. And yeah, so that really sucked to go through that experience so soon. But I also knew that there were people that were getting paid far more than I was, and they were doing far less than that. So it was time to go. By that point in time, you know, we had, let's see, the senior iOS developer had left. So I kind of picked up all of the pieces that he had left and made sure that things were still moving. That included maintaining to apps, which was a lot for a junior developer. But yeah, I just I felt like that went totally unappreciated. And it had been two years and I was still at my entry level salary. So boo. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, that's, that's a bummer. So so and so what year are we at right now? Because two years after graduation? Kim Arnett: Yeah, that would be 2014. Jeroen Leenarts: And and so you you move to another position at another company, because of the reasons that you mentioned. How did that work out for you then? Kim Arnett: Sure. Um, yeah. I I thought maybe some of my problems were because I was an enterprise development, you know, situation. So I was interested to see what a smaller company had to offer. So my next role, I did go to a smaller company, there was three iOS developers in one Android developer at the time. I think that's it. So that was a really good, well, interesting experience. They definitely had some unique challenges. I did like that, you know, there were times that the developers were directly interfacing with the clients, to get them, you know, whatever they needed, or whatever changes tweaked or, you know, so that I thought that was pretty cool that, you know, you could just hop on a call and be like, so what's going on? What bug? Are you seeing? Okay, you know, I'll work on it right away. So that was really neat. But ultimately, I ended up doing a lot more web work there than I cared for. So I think it was about another, maybe a year and a half, two years, probably year and a half. And I decided it was time to move. There's a little bit of a pattern emerging. Jeroen Leenarts: Well, it depends. Because if you haven't found the place for you, where you can really thrive and and grow, then why not move on? Right? Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So, um, so to watch your current position, how many jobs that you have in the meantime, before you ended up at your current position? Kim Arnett: Great question. So this is my, this company in eight years. Jeroen Leenarts: Wow, that's, that's reasonable, especially if you're like starting out on your career. Kim Arnett: So to hear you say that. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, but that that's always very personal reasons for people to make certain decisions and actually deciding to give up on somebody's job security, to pursue another position at another company, it's, it's something that takes courage to actually do. And I took nine years at my first company where I worked to finally hand in my notice, so I took a little bit longer than you. And so, so that's a very different experience as well. So So, in all this, you've always been a single mom, you've always been a woman in tech, you've always been I should have put this a very, at least how you come across to me as a very happy person. Like you're you're really bright angel. I, I reckon that you tend to make some noise when you're working. Is that correct? Oh. So so what were the challenges that you were facing in your career thus far? What were the then I'm not, I'm not talking about the technical things, but more the, the interpersonal and the well, basically, sometimes really stupid things? Kim Arnett: Sure. Yeah. So I actually got married to my husband in 2013. So it was about a year after I started working professionally. And we were together during that time, just not married. So it was interesting to go through all that together as well. And so yeah, it has been an interesting roller coaster. So we got married in 2013 When I started looking for my second and third jobs, so this was 2014 2015 ish, 2016 maybe closer. This is relevant, I promise. So when I was looking for my second and third jobs, you know, part of the process is applying with your name and your resume. And you have to check mark that you know, you didn't lie and all this other stuff. So I got this really nasty email from a recruiter I was working with one day and it was that a company that I really wanted to work for. So I kind of took it extremely personally when I got this email, but it was really nasty emails saying that I was lying to them that I had did not have my degree that I started her on this wild Goose Chase just to, you know, be a fraud, basically. And I asked her, it's like my degrees hanging up next to my desk, would you like a picture? And she she was basically like, no, don't waste my time anymore. And I was like, What did you call the university under my maiden name? Oh, we found it. I was like, are you like this? I'm not the only married person in tech that went to school. Made a name right. Like, tell me that's not true. Um, but yeah, that that was the first like, what the hell? I'm good. Jeroen Leenarts: So yeah, that's that's very silly, really, in the sense that that somebody wouldn't check. Someone's made a name to see if if a resume checks out. But it does seem to indicate some kind of bias going on maybe? Kim Arnett: Yeah, yeah. Like, I don't know. Maybe she had not worked with women engineers before? I don't know. Jeroen Leenarts: Seven. Okay, but that happens. And then credibly weird. Kim Arnett: But yeah, I don't know. I feel like that's a given button. You know. Um, let's see what else happened. There was. There's a lot, it seems like there's always something there was a recruiter I was working with once he was extremely toxic. For my work, we were going through this really tight release schedule. And he wanted to line up in person interview, like, the next day. And I was like, it has to be next week, I just don't have any bandwidth right now. You know, I still have to take care of my job. First and foremost, like, I'm the only developer here. You know, this is this is really important that I need to focus on this week. But I would be happy, you know, next week as let for year, I'd be happy, like, whatever time you can get in early in the week would be great. He then called me, and he verbally assaulted me over the phone and said things like, you don't really want to look for a new job. You're, again, wasting everyone's time. You know, if I really wanted this job, I would do whatever needs to be done to go to this interview. You get the you get the picture. Yeah. And I ended up like calling off everything. I was like, forget it. Like, I can't deal with this. This is ridiculous. And then his manager had called me and was like, Are you interested in working with me? And continuing this interview? And I said, Sure, blocked his number, blocked his email. So I made it through the in person got the offer. The manager was supposed to walk me to the door my first day. And she ended up quitting, she never showed up. So yeah, that was also really interesting to witness like so early in my career. Because again, you're going from like, these assumptions that everyone's good and everyone, you know, the positive intent thing that we always hear about and you just kind of like inherently assumed because you came from school where you know, it was a really supportive environment and people were cheering you on to then you get into the real world and you realize that there are really terrible people out there you know, and and just people that are just clueless I guess to like, I had worked at my first job for like I said, almost two years. And after I laughed, there was a guy that came up to one of my team members and asked for the intern when I was there for two years. Jeroen Leenarts: How long can you be an intern? That's like half year maybe maximum? Kim Arnett: I know it's just I haven't all this ridiculous ridiculous Jeroen Leenarts: but but what you say that so that you come from a positive supportive environment like school and your family? Was it Was it hard for you to deal with the fact that they're just pretty much horrible people out there? Kim Arnett: Yeah. Yeah, it's still hard. You know, you see what happened on Twitter this even the last three days just ah, oh, Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, it's I don't even, I can't even begin to imagine what kind of shit gets thrown in your direction. Just because of the fact that I'm how silly and stupid it might sound. I'm not a woman. Yeah. And I've seen things. As a bystander, you know that that stuff happens and and it's like that you start to wonder what are what's what's wrong with people, it's a person on the other end receiving this, just think before you do something, and maybe just, you know, delete that message before you send it yet. Okay, let's get to happy things again. Lots of therapy. Kim Arnett: Yes, please. Oh. Jeroen Leenarts: So from what I understood, right now you're working at a great place, we're not going to name where you work. But people who dig around a little bit can probably find out where you work. But from what I understood from one of my other contacts, it's, it's a great place to be at, and they're very supportive. And they, they like to have a very diverse group of engineers working on that technology. So that's great, you got to the position where you want to be and where you can thrive and where you can grow and where you can be a great developer. But it shouldn't be that hard to get to such a position, right, if you have to skills and the diplomas and the will to actually do that. So in all of this is there anything in this entire process that in hindsight, you could have optimized so that you ended up at your desired desired position? Easier, sooner or with less hassle? Kim Arnett: Sure. Yeah, I think a few key takeaways for me is, know what the bottom line is, know what you're willing to walk away from? You know, because I, unfortunately put myself in a lot of situations that I felt were toxic environments for various reasons. And in hindsight, to some extent, it was because I left things up to the company, things that I cared about things that I should have cared about. I just assumed that other people would also care when that's not the case at all. So you know, there's another instance where getting out of a toxic environment, I took a lower pay than was market value. And I knew that, but I didn't have the confidence to walk away from it. Right. So I just wanted out of this toxic environment. Yeah. So when I started that job, that kind of, you know, put me already behind the ball. And I also learned while I was going through this process that I'm very morally driven. So it's not so much that I was getting paid, let's say $10,000, less than somebody else. It was the diff, it was that I wasn't getting paid the fair way. Right. Right. So being already behind the ball, seeing other people getting promoted after I had been at another company for two years. That really sucked. And having these conversations with my manager, we're going nowhere. So to some extent, you know, I felt like I didn't have a choice other than to leave and find where somebody would pay me market value. So yeah, I think you know, knowing what your bottom line is being willing to walk away. If you're interested in looking for a new job, look, before you have to look, look before the situation gets toxic, before your hand is forced, because then you're going to be in a situation like I was where it's like, I don't care, just make it. Right. That's right. Jeroen Leenarts: To make sure you mentioned the bottom line is that strictly financially or set also, what you deem acceptable for what you deem acceptable in work environments, in behavior of your peers. Kim Arnett: Yeah, I think it means whatever it means to you. In some instances, it has been a financial motivator for me. In other instances, it's I need to be at a company that values diversity, right? I am tired of having these conversations. And you know, having to prove myself every day or every other day or whatever that looks like. So I you know, for some people, I need to be on a supportive team I need to be, you know, whatever that bottom line is for you. And additionally, ask questions around that. You know, I have a blog post out there somewhere, I think it's on dev two, it's interview questions you should ask. So I think, you know, taking advantage of that time in the interview, where the interviewer will ask you, if you have any questions for them, you know, figure out like, what's a deal breaker for you and ask questions around that. You know, ask about diversity inclusion, if that's what's important to you ask about promotions, if that's what's important to you. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, because so much status, so much interviews, people are in the interview, just because they want to show themselves to the company. But an interview for a position is also a great opportunity to actually basically interview the company to see if the company is a fit for you. And, and I find it so surprising that so many people when they are in a job interview, they take this completely submissive role in that they are like, completely turned over to the whims of the company or the entity that's interviewing them. And it's, it's so interesting, because especially if you're in tech, and you have like, some skills, you're actually in a position of power as a individual. So I'd say it's anybody in interview, if you, of course, it's hard to have the confidence I know. But wield that power, make sure that you get what you deserve. And that's, that's that's so important. Because, yeah, it's there's nasty people out there, right. Kim Arnett: Yeah. It's a two way street. Use it. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah. And, um, so right now, it's, you're enjoying yourself at your current position. But there's also something going on with stickers. And I know I mentioned stickers a lot to you. But I have a thing with stickers. So and I reckon you have a thing with stickers as well. So why stickers? Why create a web shop and sell your own stickers? Kim Arnett: Sure. Um, so yeah, a few years ago, this actually started this is my second shop. So a few years ago, you know, I was looking for a creative outlet that wasn't just programming. So yeah, I started kind of teaching myself about design software. I started using Affinity Photo and affinity, I think it's called designer. Yeah, Affinity Designer. And just playing around, you know, I volunteer with animal rescue. So I was doing some images and graphics for them. Got some experience under my belt. And then I decided, you know, I'm really tired of like, the typical. I don't know, I feel like programmers aren't that creative when they're creating stickers and T shirts and stuff. So Oh, I'm sorry. They're, they're very cookie cutter. You know what I mean? Like, there's not little cute emojis or anything like that tied to them. Maybe that's just that they're not cute, they're more masculine, I don't know, I haven't quite put my finger on it. But I decided, you know, it would be a lot of fun to start maybe making T shirts that I would actually wear. And you know, women's cut that I would actually wear instead of everything being unisex. So that's kind of where my first shop started. I ran into a few problems that it was kind of like a trial and error process. You know, I would spend a lot of time getting, let's say, this t shirt created and designed. And then it would go out of stock or like I'd have, you know, it would just be permanently gone. So I would have to find a different t shirt. And it was it was a really long and drawn out process. And I was overthinking everything and overanalyzing everything because that's what I do best in my life. So it just it really wasn't worth it for like the two shirts that I sold during that year or whatever it was. So I shut it down took some time and was like okay, what, you know, what can I do that will fulfill this need without spending so much time like worrying about these little details of the shirt. So that's kind of where stickers came into play. And I've had a lot of fun playing around with some different designs. That has been a learning process as well. You know what looks good and sticker format, printed out versus what doesn't. I'll show you this right here. I still make mistakes. So for those in the podcast won't be able to see it, unfortunately. But I printed my stickers on the wrong sheet of the paper on the rock paper, this was like just yesterday. So they have the watermark all over them that says, Please print on the other side. So you know, things still happen still still a learning process and getting it right. As with anything that's handmade, I guess. But it's been super fun to have this creative outlet. And I'm so glad that more people are finding my shop this time around and just enjoying the stickers and the t shirt designs as well. So, Jeroen Leenarts: okay, cool. So how is the shop doing for you, then? Kim Arnett: It's doing good. Um, there's weeks that I have absolutely no sales. There's weeks that, you know, I think the most I've ever had was maybe like, 10 in a week. So not, you know, life changing by any means. But enough that it's it's so fun. You know, I just created a new like little Norwell norwall norwall pointer exception. So that's a new sticker that I have on my shop. But yeah, it's it's just been fun. That's all it really is. It's just a hobby. You know, if I can make a little bit of cash, I've already you know, donated some money to some people in need over the pandemic through proceeds that I've made for my shop. So that's been fun as well, because it is just a hobby. I'm able to support people that help support me, so Jeroen Leenarts: yeah, cool. And so let's see if there's anything that we still need to talk about yet. WWDC what was like the announcements in there that will have the biggest impact on your day to day life as a developer? Kim Arnett: Day to day life? Jeroen Leenarts: That's yeah, Kim Arnett: that's interesting. Um, man, as the developer, I'm not sure I'm pretty excited about the possibilities of X cloud, or x cloud. Hmm, X code cloud. I think that's really exciting. I, my current team, you know, we've been having some problems with CI CD. So I'm interested in that possibility that's really appealing to me. But as a user, like I was really excited about the 3d maps and reality kit. I think that combination is awesome as somebody who gets lost quite frequently, as also super excited to see the object Capture API. Cuz now I might actually, like make a game. It's something I've always wanted to do, but 3d objects scare me. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, that they're complex. And you need to do like a lot of furnaces. Kim Arnett: Yeah, I've made some really ugly stuff. Jeroen Leenarts: These are stickers, right. Right. Because they look, they look amazing. So the the X code cloud thing that you mentioned that and also the CI CD challenges that you're facing. We're facing some issues where I work as well. And it's very interesting to see what Xcode cloud will bring and don't have access to the Early Access better yet. So I hope I'll get access soon. Yeah, and then who knows what it'll bring? Yeah. So just to wrap things up a little bit, because we're approaching 45 minutes so that we've been talking. You also do some other things besides your day job, your stickers and some other things if I'm correct, right. Kim Arnett: What else do I do? Oh, I'm kind of so I've been involved in some online communities. I'm a really bad slack citizen. So I made a lot of slacks, but unfortunately, I'm not very. I don't contribute a lot as much as I'd like right now. But yeah, I you know, I'm really active on Twitter, as many people know. Maybe even annoyingly, so. But in doing that, you know, I hope to not only share my experience, but I hope to be the person that I wish I had when I was coming into development. Jeroen Leenarts: So and and if people have a question for you, our day, think you can help them with something. What's the best way for people to actually Get in touch with you. And of course, because of the crap that you sometimes have to deal with on Twitter, because it's amazing. I reckon you have some sort of filtering going on to make sure that you fat somebody who shows up in your DM. So what's the best approach people can take in that regard? Kim Arnett: Sure. Yeah, I think Twitter is still the best route because it's most public. So I do have message requests on so I will see your message, but I won't always accept it. So please, you know, if you need something for me, or you just want to say, include it in just one message. And for the most part, like I'm pretty flexible with who I accept. So not all hope is lost. But yeah, I definitely do have to filter some stuff out. Because even when I have, you know, give benefit of the doubt, sometimes I get experimental, it's like, Okay, let's see what happens. And I recently had somebody say, Oh, you're in Detroit. I said, Yeah. And this was just like, after, hey, you know, I'm an iOS like, oh, you seem normal. Okay. Hey. So he asked if I was in Detroit, I said, Yeah. And he drew a picture, like a screenshot of a map from his house to Detroit. And I said, Okay, that's grounds for a block. There was nothing else they're like, please just don't do that. But yeah, messaged me, like, you know, let's chat. I'm here for it. You know, if you just want to send me a tweet, that's totally fair game, too, and probably easier and preferred. But yeah, I also blog and def to my username. There is Qaeda code. My username on Twitter is Qaeda code. It spelled exactly how it sounds. KYDACO. De. Jeroen Leenarts: Oh, where does this Twitter handle come from? Actually, because yeah, my name is Kim. That's Kim Arnett: yeah, good question. Oh, and my shop Qaeda co.com half course. Okay. So yeah, Qaeda code comes from my initials are KDA. So if you spell out k, k, y, and then DA is my middle of last name. Jeroen Leenarts: That's clever, actually. Okay, so now people know how to find you on the internet and know how to get in touch with you on the internet. Is there anything you still want to share? Because we've talked about Qaeda koat.com. Please go visit nice stickers there. But is there anything that we've missed Kim Arnett: out things so talked about a lot of stuff. Jeroen Leenarts: I agree to that. But it was again, a lot of fun. And I hope people listening to this. Enjoy the conversation as much as I have talking with you, Kim. And well, talk to you again in the future. I'd say if there's any new developments, then let me know. And maybe we'll hook up again and see where you're at at that point in time. Kim Arnett: Yeah, sounds great. Thanks so much for having me. It's been fun.