Sam McGarry, an iOS software developer origin story

Jeroen Leenarts: Hi, and welcome to another episode of my podcast. I'm sitting here with Sam McHenry. And you've heard him before on my podcast, but this time around, I'm really interviewing him. And just to get his backstory, Sam is a college dropout. He's been a cook. And quite recently, he was able to land his first iOS job. So Sam, Welcome, and congratulations on that milestone. I think it is. Sam McGarry: I thank you so much. Jeroen Leenarts: So you have a bit of an interesting story, actually, because you took a bit of a detour getting to the basically the job that you want to get out when you got started, because you're a college dropout. How did that happen? Sam McGarry: It was for several different reasons. But to sum it up, it was it came down to my unit, my university was very expensive. And I wasn't in the school that I wanted to be in at the time, I wanted to study computer science, and I hadn't originally gotten into that school, when I when I applied. So in order to qualify, I would have had to take prerequisite courses for about a year and a half. And even then there was no guarantee I would even get into the program. Okay. And then afterwards, I would do the program and get my degree. So that was that, that played a role in me dropping out. And just knowing that it was it was expensive, while out be preparing to apply. played a role as well. Jeroen Leenarts: So you mentioned you had to get some prerequisite courses, if you wanted to be able to apply? Was that because of your prior education before getting to this point, or? Sam McGarry: Yeah, so I didn't have any prior, for example, computer science classes under under my belt. In the US, you can take in high school, you can take AP courses, which are basically college courses in high school. And you can take computer science courses that way. And I didn't really have anything like that. And usually what you do when you apply to school is you apply to like the art school for things related to art, and then for engineering and things like computer science, you go into a STEM program, okay. And if you don't get in initially, then you you basically have to reapply again. So in my case, I was in the art school. Jeroen Leenarts: So so what, what education did you do before you dropped out? Sam McGarry: It was mostly, it was mostly just general classes. So in, and I think correct me if I'm wrong, but in Europe, they do the majority of the general stuff in primary school. And in the US, they, some of it, you still do in the first two years of college, these like general studies that are usually required by the university. And that's what most people focus on their first two years before they even start really taking focus classes in their degree. So it was mostly just general things, general history, some general science, and I did manage to take one JavaScript course, which is cool. And that was like one of the prerequisite courses I would have had to take. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay, so in the end, you You did figure out that you wanted to do something with computers, because you already mentioned that you wanted to apply to a computer science program, which didn't work out because then of course, you have to get the prerequisites and do all kinds of things to actually be able to get into the program. And then well basically stack up some hefty student loans, I guess, exam. So what was your thought process at that time that you thought, Okay, let's just not do this. And you mentioned at some point that you traveled around quite a bit, and that you ended up becoming somewhat of a cook and you actually cooked professionally. So So what's the story there? Because it's, it's a bit of a change from like something with computers to something with pots and pans, you know? Sam McGarry: Definitely. It's definitely it's definitely a bit of a change as I think that's kind of an understatement because it's like I I feel like I just went to complete opposite direction. But I, I wanted to do something with computer science when I dropped out. And I wasn't quite sure how to go about that. And I had heard of developers teaching themselves, and then landing jobs down the line. So considering I was doing that myself, and I wasn't in a formal curriculum or environment that required me to be at a school, for example, I, I, I considered traveling as an option. And I ended up doing it because I wasn't tied down to one place. So at that time, I set two goals for myself, one of which was to teach myself swift in my spare time, and try to work on becoming an iOS developer. And the other was to learn a foreign language, which ended up being French. Jeroen Leenarts: So um, how's your French right now? Sam McGarry: It's, it's a little rusty. But I would say overall, for an American, it's pretty good. My accent. I worked a lot on my accent. And I was immersed in a French environment for about five months. Maybe even longer than that, because I wasn't France for nine months I lived with, I just lived with English speaking people for the first half of it. But being immersed for five months really, really helped me. So I think I still have a lot to learn. But I think I achieved my goal. Jeroen Leenarts: So you mentioned that you you traveled but you also mentioned that you were in France for nine months, I think you said, yeah. So were you in one location in France, or moving about or was it pretty much just one, one city that you that you lived in and you and lived your life there for nine months. Sam McGarry: So a little bit of both. When I first got there, I wasn't quite sure what I was doing, or how I was going to accomplish my goal of learning French. So I started by moving around, I lived in one place for a month and a half helping a family as a handyman. And I also put for them. And that was in a small village in the West of France called Launch Vidya. So mouth. And then after that, I went to the south of France, to your another small town called costs. And that's near nice, which is more well known. Okay. And then afterwards, I ended up moving to Knott's which is the fourth largest city in France, I believe. Okay. And that's where I stayed and got a more stable job. Jeroen Leenarts: So and more stable job as a cook or as a cook. Yeah. And learning swift in this time frame. Was it like when you got back from France in the US? Or was it also during this time that you were applying yourself to learn Swift? Sam McGarry: It was also during this time, like I would, I was doing so the first half of my time there. I was doing these odd jobs. I was like I said, I was a handyman, I was painting houses. And then afterwards, I worked as a groundskeeper helping maintain a large property, south of France. And in my spare time I was working on on projects. And I would basically set myself a goal with a project and then I'd worked on it in my spare time, for about a month or so. Jeroen Leenarts: So I'm just trying to grasp the thought process that you must have went through. So okay, there's a day you decide to drop out? Did you already have a clear cut plan of what you wanted to do? Or did you come up with it as you as you went? Sam McGarry: Not clear cut at all. The only thing that was clear cut was those two goals that I set for myself to learn the foreign language and to try to teach myself a programming language. And with those, like broad goals, I kind of started paving the path for myself. Yeah. And that was like the only considering the way I was traveling at the time, it was it was kind of hard to be any more formal than that. And when I did end up getting a job while I was there, it was easy to set up a schedule and work on it in my spare time. Jeroen Leenarts: So So why France because that's, that's quite a trip you need to make from the US, right? Sam McGarry: Yeah. I had already begun learning French when I was younger. I took, like, I knew the basics, I took like, three, three years, I think, in in between middle and high school. So out of the language out of like all the languages, I knew I knew that one a little bit. So I felt drawn to sort of complete that. Right, not completed, but become more fluent in that language. And I've always thought it was an interesting language. So I chose that, and I figured the best place to immerse myself be France. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah. So and, and what's the process then? So you you had those two goals you dropped out? And then you thought, Okay, let's go to France. Then what you just buy a plane ticket? Or what's the deal? Sam McGarry: Yeah, so I, I didn't just show up there, I, I went on this website called Workaway dot info, which I had used in the past. And it's, it's this really cool website, where, basically anywhere in the world, you can find a short term stay in a city in exchange for part time work. And it's usually in places like hospitals, or sometimes it's in, like, in or near a restaurant, and you may help work by working in a restaurant. But in my case, it was just helping with kind of like random things around a few properties as a handyman, like doing painting, and renovating a porch, for example. And I would also cook meals for the family sometimes. So it's really random stuff. Jeroen Leenarts: So So and why did you pick up these these skills, you know, cooking and building a porch and painting and groundskeeping and all this stuff. Sam McGarry: Most of it was you just learn as you go. And that was the case for everybody else that was there it was. It's just like, if you're willing to learn, and you can do physical labor, it's pretty straightforward. They'll explain the rest to you. As far as cooking goes, my first ever worked way that I ever did was in a restaurant. And that was when I was 18, in Portugal. And I picked up most of what I know about cooking there. So and I had worked as a cook the previous summer before I left, so I, I had a little bit on my phone. Jeroen Leenarts: So and what level of a cook, would you consider yourself if you would ever have to apply again to such position? Sam McGarry: I'm not really sure how to like, like, I'm no chef. Like, I'm, I don't have any formal culinary education. But I can be given a recipe and shown how to do something once and I can usually replicate it. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah. Okay. Um, and what years we'll be talking about when you dropped out. And when you move to France, and when you got back, because I think it was all just before the whole Corona thing happened, right? Sam McGarry: Yes. So COVID 19, hit Wilo while I was in France, working as a cook. And I remember the night that the government announced that they were going to go into quarantine was it was like middle of March, middle of March in 2020. I think it was like March 18 or something. Yeah. But I remember I was washing dishes and everyone in the restaurant, waiters, everyone who was eating there, got up and went to the TV. And everyone crowded around it. And my boss came and told me that I didn't have to come into work the next day. And then from that day, until the end of April, I was in quarantine my apartment in France, because I couldn't get a flight out. Jeroen Leenarts: Oh, that's a bummer. It was six weeks. Wow. That's a lot. A lot of spare time for programming. But that's a bit, I think. Yeah. So. So yeah, that that that'll happens. You also already mentioned that you had an interest in computer science or doing something with computers to to make your life as How did you gain that interest? Because you mentioned that you already did like a course on JavaScript. But there must have been things with computers before that even besides just you know, right Adding some papers for, for school or, and that that's more involved in that right? Sam McGarry: Yeah, so I've, I've always had an interest in computers since I was younger. And since I got my first computer, which was like a crappy, like $200 laptop, I was always like messing around with things. I was never like, it's I wasn't like, you know, writing terminal commands when I was like in middle school or anything, but I was always kind of like tinkering with things. And when I was, and I think that's for the original interest can remember, in eighth grade, when I was, I think 13, I had a final project for the year in my school, which was completely open ended. And you could choose to do anything that you wanted, as long as you made a proposal and follow through on it. And it could be anything from making a cookbook or a movie. And I chose to try to make a program. So there was somebody at the school at the time, who was a former programmer, and I asked him to be my mentor. And I, my projects ended up being a photo editing program, written in C Sharp that ran on Windows. And then after that I didn't program until that JavaScript class, Jeroen Leenarts: but it's just a photo editing program. In C sharp it's sounds like a lot of code that needs to be written for that, or how did it work out? Sam McGarry: Me, He showed me how to use Stack Overflow. Jeroen Leenarts: at it, that's an important skill, right? Yeah. So he decided to teach yourself programming. Or at least you had some prior experience, as you mentioned, with JavaScript, and now C sharp. But why Swift? Why this specific language. Sam McGarry: So I had always had an interest in iOS specifically. And I think out of all programming jobs being once I found out that being an iOS developer was the thing, I was really interested in that I remember, just ever since I had my first iPod, I love everything about iOS, I love the platform, and I love everything that went into it. So getting the chance to learn more about it as actually build things for the platform. And to it for living is something that really interests me. And I remember, I think when I was traveling, the first time around when I was 18, I met an app developer, briefly. And he showed me an app that he was working on. And I just thought it was the coolest thing in the world that like he just pulled his phone out of his pocket and had had something that you built right there. So Jeroen Leenarts: So and that made you decide to, to pursue swift as a development language. Yeah. But then what you you have a, you have an idea, like, I want to learn this. Where to start. Sam McGarry: I started by writing a. So at the time I like knew some JavaScript, because of course I had just taken. So I started Googling around and going on YouTube, as like finding tutorials. And I think I found it tutorial by code with Chris. And I didn't even watch the entire tutorial. But I use this tutorial as like an inspiration. And it was basically it was a really simple app, because it was like build your first app or something. And it was just the war car game, which is the game where you like, you both place a car down the same time and Chevy cars higher wins the cars. And it's about winning the entire deck. And using that as inspiration. I wrote a kind of like the back end for it in Java scripts. And so there was no visual aspect to it. But I got like the the functionality of the game to work in JavaScript. And then I slowly started translating things into Swift. And then I use storyboard and Xcode to make my first UI. And then using like random numbers. I had like a quote unquote, CPU. And that was, that was my first step. And once I had like, gotten over that barrier of how do I even use this language? It was easy to kind of start setting up my next project. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay. And so when was that you created this this initial first little app that you just mentioned. Sam McGarry: That was right when I write when I moved to France. So I completed it after being in France for a month. Jeroen Leenarts: So that was like, halfway through. Let's hit 2019. That's correct. Sam McGarry: That was like, yes. September, early October of 2019. Okay, Jeroen Leenarts: yeah. Because in March, you were forced to go back to the US after six weeks of quarantine. Sam McGarry: And the next year, and yeah, and then Jeroen Leenarts: the year before, nine months before that, prior to that you, you actually went to France. So right now, the big news that, that I recently heard from you, is that you actually landed your first iOS development job. Can you tell us where you're working right now? Sam McGarry: Yeah, um, so I'm working as a contract developer for a company called glow tech. Jeroen Leenarts: So contracted developer. So that means you're you're sort of freelancing, or are you on their payroll? Sam McGarry: I'm under payroll. But I say that because I, I work in tandem with another company who is basically contracted. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay. Yeah. Sam McGarry: So yeah, that's more distracted for that company. Jeroen Leenarts: That's more the construction of all the paperwork. Really? Yeah. So what was the process of, of getting this first job? Because you've been teaching yourself? app development, iOS development with Swift? And how hard was it to, to get to get your foot in the door to begin with, and then second of all, to actually be able to have a successful job interview. Sam McGarry: So I won't lie it was it was pretty difficult. Particularly because I was working as a cook while trying to achieve this goal of becoming an iOS developer. And with that in mind, it felt like I was really doing two things at once. And I would say it, it took me, so I have been working on Swift for about for about two years now. Yeah. But I, I didn't, I wouldn't say I really like dove in, fully into the job search, and really prepared myself for that aspects of it, or even felt prepared for it until the beginning of this year. So from that point, until now, it's was about five or six months. And I was new to technical interviews. And I was new to presenting any kind of technical skill in in an interview. Yeah. And so that was a huge learning experience for me. And getting getting my first interview was really exciting. Which happened in January, as I pass the introductory round. And I just remember, like, it just felt like I was almost there. Because I had already been working on it for a year and a half, when in reality, job interviews, a job interview, it doesn't guarantee anything. Yeah. So one thing I definitely struggled with was really getting getting excited for an opportunity, only to be declined later on. Which happened with that interview. After the technical round, so Jeroen Leenarts: so so and what what were the biggest lessons that you discovered you needed to learn in the whole interviewing process? Sam McGarry: I would say the biggest lesson was just learning to not, not try it, try not to have too much emotion associated with the process. Because it, it doesn't really help the result. And it doesn't help how you feel afterwards. Yeah. And I kind of had to go through that a few times to really get that, get that into my head and to really learn that. And also just just being consistent with my preparation in general. Not not preparing the day before a job interview, just kind of always trying to keep myself fresh on the basics and doing everything I can to prepare for that specific job interview. Jeroen Leenarts: So how many applications Did you submit Sam McGarry: It was 35. And out of that, out of those 35, I got responses from I think 14 of them. And I got interviews with one, two, or four or five. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay. Yeah. And the interview that was successful, was it like, an interview that you landed just on open application? Or was it through networking with some people that you happen to, to know? Sam McGarry: Completely through networking? Okay. So, I, I met this developer through an online developer coffee meetup. I think it was, I think it was in January, maybe maybe in February, but it was a while ago. And he messaged me on on Twitter and asked if I was still looking for a job. I said, I said, Yeah, and he asked me a few other questions and said, Okay, I can try to get you a take on projects. And if you have good results, no guarantees, but I may be able to get you an interview. So I did to take on projects. And I passed that, and I ended up getting getting an interview the next week. Okay, and because they don't typically do a take on projects, I think, usually, they just do two rounds of interviews, I was actually able to skip the first round and go straight to the final rounds. Okay. And and that just the final round was with five different people. And they there was like a behavioral aspect to it, and then a technical part of it as well. Jeroen Leenarts: And the the take home project, was that the the ISS tracking thing that you also have on your GitHub? Sam McGarry: No, that was for probably the other big opportunity that I almost got. Yeah. Jeroen Leenarts: So yeah, I said that the take home project for this job interview was was something that they requested you for specifically what you needed to create. And it is not something that you can share online on GitHub, for example. Sam McGarry: It is on GitHub. I just didn't like tweet about it or anything. But But yeah, if anyone's curious, it's just, I think it's called Star Wars people. It's just an iPad app that takes from that gets information from the Star Wars API and presents it Jeroen Leenarts: now you you're working as a software developer, what's the biggest change for your life, compared to before you started your life as a paid software developer? Sam McGarry: Probably the biggest change is just not having to go not having to do this on top of doing work and in a really physical work environment. So I am not exhausted all the time. Now. Even at one point, I went down to part time as a cook, and I was doing it three or four days a week. And I would still, I would still feel it, the physical exhaustion throughout my weekend. And it just would affect my energy level and my motivation, and everything that I needed to be consistent about self studying software development. Jeroen Leenarts: And any any responses you've gotten from people that are a bit closer to you. So like friends or family. Sam McGarry: Yes. My family is was was really excited because they knew I had been going for a job for a really long time. And like, right when I got the job, I had just gotten out of a really long interview process that took about three and a half months, because it was with a really big company. And I got to the finish line. Basically, I was in the top three candidates out of 200 people and I ended up not getting the job due to my lack of experience. Yeah. And they they knew all that so they were really happy when I ended up lining something. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay, so And what's your plan right now? Because probably gaining some experience that that will help but what else because I can imagine that you have a bit more spare time, as you already mentioned. So what to do with all this time? Sam McGarry: Yeah. I've been trying to enjoy it as much as I can try to really work on like, you know, exercising and things like that. But I've, since my job is remote, and, again, not really tied down to one place. Yeah. Although I do have to be in the US. I'm thinking about moving elsewhere. So I'm still kind of poking around and looking at places, but I kind of see as a good opportunity to go live in a cool place. Jeroen Leenarts: And because right now you if I'm correct, you live near New York City, right, or? Sam McGarry: Yeah, I live about four to five hours away from New York City in upstate New York. Jeroen Leenarts: So yeah, I have no clue what upstate New York is. But that's probably the state of New York, right? Sam McGarry: Yeah. I, when I was in Europe, I stopped trying to say upstate New York because everyone just thought that meant New York City. Jeroen Leenarts: And same with the Netherlands. If I say yeah, I'm from the Netherlands. They go like, where's that? I say, Amsterdam? Oh, you're from? Yeah. Oh, come on, man. It's it's a whole country, not one city. So um, so yeah, you're looking into like, moving around a little bit in, in the larger United States, it seems to also to adjust your cost of living a little bit? Or is it more like just sightseeing and seeing what else is, is available in the entire United States? Sam McGarry: Probably adjust my cost of living, but I don't know, I'm, I'm open to a lot of different things. So I'm just like, for example, right now, I'm looking at some places in New York City. And it's a place I've always wanted to live. And it's, it's nearby as well. So cross country or anything, Jeroen Leenarts: would probably increase your cost of living a little bit living in the city itself. But yeah, you just said change costs. For the better. Yeah, so yeah, that sounds like Like, like, if you really want to, like, you know, likely soak in the city life for a while that that seems like a good opportunity, I reckon. Yeah, the other opposite would be like to go in into some more rural areas of the United States. That's provided to have an internet connection. But you already mentioned that you lived in some small villages in, in France. So you'll probably be able to manage I reckon Sam McGarry: I'd be able to manage, but I've tried it now. And I know, it's, it's not really for me, I prefer to be around more people, or like different kinds of people from different places. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay. So and how do you stay connected, while being a remote worker? Because I can imagine that you don't get to see your peers very often. You probably have met them on a few occasions already. But so so what's the what's the deal for you to like, stay in the loop and to just not turn into a crazy hermit with like, a foot long beard and stuff like that? Sam McGarry: Yeah. So we're obviously like chatting every day. And we we tend to help each other a few times a week using tuple. Like the pair programming thing, and just hop in calls and work on things together. Yeah. Which, which is helps. And I believe my company doesn't meet up every now and then. Which I'm really looking forward to. But besides that, there, there is a much in person stuff going on, because everyone lives all over the place. Jeroen Leenarts: If you would plot your development. Have you as a software developer? Has this graph changed a lot since you started your job? Or so? are you gaining knowledge quicker or easier now? Or is it different? Or what's it like for you because being self taught takes a lot of perseverance and probably also a lot of time? And I'm not meaning about time each day, but time in like months that you have to keep at it. So yes, it has to change a lot for you to just being able to fully focus on software development and then just being able to keep on learning. Sam McGarry: Yeah, so Yeah, if you could put it on a graph, it would definitely be, I don't really know what like the term is, but it would be really slow for the first like year or so. And then it would just shoot up after that. Because after I really started to get like the basic understanding, and also just be able to use that basic understanding, I was naturally able to start picking up things quicker. And there was some, there was some things I struggled with like, like you learning UI kit, for example. I've started with Swift UI, and I did not want to learn UI kit, because it just looks difficult. But after getting over that, kind of like mental speed bump, I was able to pick up the basics and then start to gain an interest. And then today, I, I, it's a lot easier for me to pick up things just because I have that, that basic knowledge already with me. Jeroen Leenarts: And when when learning new things, do you have like a standard way of like trying to gain the skills? Or is it what's your process? Because you mentioned yet learning UI kit? That's, that's very abstract. So yeah, where would you start? If somebody would come up to you and say, like, I want to learn UI kit. So what do I do? Sam McGarry: The way I did it was, I would assign myself a project, which would usually be an app that would focus on some specific technologies that I want to learn. So I wanted to learn core data. And I wanted to learn UI kit. So I just told myself, Okay, I'll try to build an app using both of those things. And it obviously wasn't like a pretty straight path and achieving that goal. But just working with those things on an app for I worked on the project for several months. It I just, I was able to learn a lot that way, would you Jeroen Leenarts: say that, creating a small project. So like, sort of made basically a small product as a better effect, when learning frameworks and software development compared to following tutorials. Sam McGarry: I think it can be really, really useful. Because it's, it's practical. Whereas, you know, like, in tutorials, you're learning things, and you're watching somebody else do something sometimes. But I think and I think he could even go in tandem with tutorials, like you learn something from this tutorial, and then go try to replicate it in your own way, on a small level. And I think it's just useful because you're, you're actually practicing what what you've learned, okay? And for me, at least, it really helped me retain all that, all that information. Jeroen Leenarts: And and what would you give as advice to anybody who's like hearing your story and thinking, maybe this is, this is a path, I want to take as well to just switch myself around to something completely different, and pick up new skills and then actually be able to land a different job through all this effort. Sam McGarry: So besides, like the tech, the technical resources that are amazing to anybody, beginning Swift, like hacking with Swift, and Ray Wonderlic, and all that stuff, the thing that made a huge difference for me was joining Twitter, and joining the iOS developer community on Twitter. And just and also attending events, and just meeting developers reaching out to people saying that you're, you're learning, and you want to learn and tell people what you're working on, tweet about it, be vocal about it, and the community is the most welcoming community I've ever been a part of. So it's, it's just really making those connections did many things for me, like it helped with my motivation, and it helped help me figure out what the best next step was. Jeroen Leenarts: So but that that's like the whole process thing. So in what way was putting yourself out there for all those people to see? helpful as well? Because I reckon that just being able to share your story is very beneficial for yourself just for your own well being But were there also situations that you got stuck on something very specific. And then just by mentioning it in the in the right platform, so either Twitter or some online meetup or whatever, and that then somebody was able to help you get unstuck, or? Sam McGarry: Absolutely. So in in January, I participated in a hackathon organised by syro and ting, I believe, I believe to be on your podcast. Yeah, but. And at that hackathon, I met some really cool developers, and they. So one of them. Nadeem, I believe, has been on this podcast as well. Then there's this guy named Ezra, and Alex, and we worked on out together, and we had a group shot. And we've had that group shot ever since. And there are many points where I was working on take home projects. And or I was, you know, somewhere in the job interview process, I didn't know quite what to say to an email. And there were many points where I got stuck. And they were super helpful. Like, I would just hit them up in a group chat and ask whatever dumb question that was that I had, and they'd be more than happy to help me. So if I hadn't attended that event, and worked with them, I know, I never would have met them. And just that was, that was probably the biggest example for me. But I've also gotten advice on on Twitter, and iOS dev happy hour from, from developers. Jeroen Leenarts: The three names that you just mentioned that were deemed as Ryan, Alex, have you ever met any of them in real life? Up to this point? Nope. The effort expects to meet any of them in real life. Sam McGarry: Hopefully, I'd love to. Yeah, yeah. We live all over the place. So it's, it's a, it would require some logistics, but I'm sure it'll happen at some point. Jeroen Leenarts: Do you ever expect that you will be able to be in a position that you can pay it forward in the sense that the help that you've been given that you can give that help to maybe somebody who raises his or her hand at that point in time? Sam McGarry: I, I really hope so. I, I wouldn't say I'm, I'm qualified to do that now. Because I'm, I've only just started my journey. But I would say I'm qualified to share my experiences and my story thus far. And and I'm more than happy to help anybody who may need to hear any part of that. Okay, because people did that for me. Jeroen Leenarts: Cool. Well, Sam, I think we have a quite a good recap of of your last couple years. So you expect many big changes in the near future, or maybe just move house a little bit, but anything else that you're planning at the moment? Sam McGarry: I am working on a app myself. And I was pretty close. It's in the beta right now. It's called track ISS. And I'm hoping to release it in the near future. I kind of pause work on it, because I've been getting up to speed at my new job. But I'm excited to launch it at some point. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay. Yeah, so that's very interesting. So people should keep an eye on your Twitter I reckon to to get announcements on on track ISS. So with that, if there's nothing else that that we've forgotten then, Sam, I'd say thanks for your time, and we'll be sure to catch up in near future. Thanks so much for having me on.