Adam Rush, SwiftLeeds organizer, RayWenderlich author and my colleague at Stream

Jeroen Leenarts: Hi, and welcome to another special edition of my podcast. I'm sitting here with Adam Roche. Adam is actually a colleague of mine at the company that I work stream. So we'll probably go into that a little bit, as well. But there's a lot of other things that I wanted to talk about with Adam. He's had a very busy 2021. And yeah, just want to get his story on those things, and also learn a little bit more on his backstory, how he got into software development, and iOS specifically. So Adam, Hi, how are you doing today? Adam Rush: Hey, I'm so happy to be on your podcast. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, it's a bit weird to talk to each other each day. But then in this setting, it is a bit different, I guess. So just to get things started. We are colleagues at stream. I'm IOS Developer Relations lead. And but what's your role? Adam Rush: Well, it's is more recently changed. But yeah, I mean, I joined the stream, in September just gone as principal engineer on iOS, but more recently changed to a bit more of a push. job title, but a similar role as technical director on iOS, specifically, as well. Jeroen Leenarts: So what's the difference between a principal engineer and a technical director then, Adam Rush: so I guess, a bit more strategic, a bit more business focused, and also a bit more management responsibility by guests with with the terminology as technical, it's, it's very much hands on, you know, staying close to the ground, seeing what technical requirements we have, but myself, again, a bit more wider, in terms of the impact across the business estate. So collaborating more cross over SDKs, forget about what the impact is across, you know, the backend, and how much load we're pressing on that. So I see it as very much a principal engineer in row in terms of staying close to the code base, seeing what's going on there. But very much widening the scope, and forget about the impact across the engineering teams, forecasting the budget of how much we're going to spend there and the investment. So it's, it's kind of doing that true, what I'm really passionate about, which is a bit more strategic bit more business, and also working more closely with the people on the team as well. The Jeroen Leenarts: two of us know each other from our work at stream, but online, what are some things that people could know you from? Adam Rush: Yeah, it's a it's a, it's been a busy 2021, I can't believe we're in another new year, actually, it's been really busy. So I launched swift leads, which is a brand new Swift conference here in the UK, it was due to launch actually in 2020. But COVID kind of disrupted that, but we managed to launch in 2021. And it was, it was really nice, actually, just to be the person who regroups almost unites the community, given what's going on in the world. So I managed to get that off the ground last year. And then also, I've spent most of my time, actually, probably the last five or six years working for Ray wonderlic.com. So I was offered there, write tutorials, blogs, videos, books, actually, I've done done a bit of everything there. But more recently, I've started my own blog, swiftly rush.com I just started to realize that I need to kind of build up my own brand a little bit, and just do some stuff for me. So So I launched that this year, it's been great financially, right, in my own tutorials and articles and, and kind of learning how to run a website. Because this is this is also new territory for me, you know how SEO works. So it's been it's been nice to do a little bit bit of different stuff. So yeah, there's it, there's a few friends, I like to keep busy. I like to do tons of stuff for the community, because you know, that's how, that's how I learned. That's how I add to the industry. So I've always given back so there's a few friends you might see me on. Jeroen Leenarts: So you mentioned a couple things there. So that's swift leads your workflow, right when like.com and your websites, the first of all, Swift leads that's a conference in Leeds United Kingdom, correct, correct. Yeah. And you were able to pull off an addition in person in 2021. So how did that happen? Because it's the first time that you that you ran swift leads, right? Adam Rush: The only was it the first ever swift leads, but it was the first ever conference that I've ever be behind. I've always attended conferences, so I kind of know how you know the logistics of doing a fin but I don't Finger quite anticipated how much energy is required. But yeah, it was it was more so difficult, given the circumstances that that we live in. However, the UK at the time was was okay in that sense. But yeah, it did bring additional challenges more so given the situation, but you know what it was, it was such an honor and pleasure, because the majority of people that attended the conference, were very new to the industry, the enthusiasm and the passion of people that arrived, the energy that they were giving off was just so high. And afterwards, I was like, a dust. The reason why we put that on, unite in new people who are joining the industry was so powerful. Afterwards, I was like, on cloud nine, I was like, This is amazing. For me, that's what it's about, you know, it's a nonprofit conference, nobody's making money, hopefully affordable for many, many people. And if not, then, especially this coming year, we really plan on inviting people who might not be able to attend otherwise. So I really want it to be what I said on the day, which is a conference built by the community for the community. And I hope we can keep that going for as long as I'm around, involved. And we've also invited the community to be part of the conference. So we had an open invite this year, and we've got 15 people on the team from around the world would you believe, and from all kinds of backgrounds, and the hope is that everyone can really chip in and change the conference so that it's really inviting fit for everyone. So I'm really looking forward to seeing how that develops. Jeroen Leenarts: So that was like a first time ever conference that you organized, there was some some window of opportunity in a global pandemic, how tense was that? Because how many lead time did you have before the actual execution and that you actually committed to hiring a venue, getting people to pay for tickets and all the logistics that surrounds preparing for a conference? Adam Rush: Yeah, I planned for a normal event. So I was assuming that everything was going ahead. But I always had, in the back of my mind of what is Plan B, you know, what if the government announce a closure, what if we can't hearse, so many people. So I always had the plan B in the back of our pocket, just in case we needed to deviate away. And one of the messages I kept on pushing out especially on social to people was the minister, but we're not spending the money. If you need a refund, if you want your money back, if you can't make it if you don't feel comfortable, the money's there. So do as you know, no quibble, refund policy available to everyone. And we just plan for that normal event. And then about one or two months before, that's when we start buying the swag and all the stuff that you know, we needed. A rally started sort of closing in as the time window is shortened. But yeah, it was very much of let's just plan for a normal event. But we've got the plan B Ready, just just in case. Jeroen Leenarts: And what was this plan B cancel like a like a Complete Cancellation refund as much as possible and cancel all the all the catering and stuff that you had arranged. Up to that point. Adam Rush: Yeah, we would never have postponed we would have simply canceled for for the following year. And the refund would have been available to anyone. But actually, you know what, most people who, who had bought a ticket initially, they were very supportive. They said, Look, we want to attend at some point. So we're gonna keep our ticket. We had people buy in from almost probably 18 months prior to the event even taking place and they were brilliant. They just wanted to support a brand new conference, which was overwhelming, actually, with that level of support. But yeah, we would have canceled for the following year, offered a refund if people wanted to. They just plumbed again for for the next year. But thankfully, that wasn't the case. Jeroen Leenarts: So and so you're planning in another edition in in 2022, I guess how many tickets have carried over from 2021 to 2022 at this point. Adam Rush: So not so we we fulfilled everyone's ticket. In fact, we We had to turn people away, which was, which was a good week, we had so much hype on social. Again, it was quite overwhelming to see how many people wanted to back a new conference. And it got to a point where people were messaging me like a day before night before, say, can I attend a conference. But because of COVID, because we were very tight on that, the swag and the food and we had to get that booked in, we did have to turn in a handful people aware. So going into 2022, it's going to be a clean slate, we'll open super early bird tickets as normal very soon. And then we'll keep on rolling as we get closer to the to the to the debt. Jeroen Leenarts: And how many people attended to Swift leads this year, or at least 2021 edition. Adam Rush: So we had 100. And I think it was 121 ish, attendees, which was quite again, it surprised me, I forecasted about 50 people. That was my goal. And we doubled it. And so so I was, I was really chuffed with with the turnout, we had a great panel of sponsors who kindly sponsored the event as well. And it just meant we could really invest in in the people and the community and the conference. And yeah, that that that was that was brilliant. So this year, I'm hedging my bets, I want to double the number of attendees. So I want to reach 200 people attend. So I that the goal here is to become the go to conference in the UK, I think we've got that the scope with the team, the community that I've joined the coverage to really go big, and make this the best that can be here in in the UK. So yeah, Jeroen Leenarts: that's, that's swift leads, it's in the name where it is situated in the UK in the city of Leeds. Is there a specific reason that you pick that city? Or was it just because that's where you're living? Or what's the reasoning Adam Rush: a bit above. So Leeds is a great city, sort of north north of the UK, as well, I'm from I was born here, I actually live on the outskirts of Leeds. Now I don't actually live live in the city. But it's a great place to live. But but as well, it's, it's the north of the country, it's not always the most invested place in the UK, it's done with the capital. So it was, it was a very easy decision to say, let's, let's put this conference where not all the invest, investment is made, and allow everyone you know, no matter where you are in the UK to attend. So it's, it's a very accessible place. We had people from London, because it's only a few hours on the train. But then we had people also from Scotland, from the far north of the country, and then also from east and west. So is it was very easy to come to the decision of I know the city, it's a great city. But also it's so accessible, you know, anyone can attend. And then also we have, you know, International Airport as well in Leeds, we can also have people from outside of the country attend. So it just it kind of just made sense to to stick it here. Jeroen Leenarts: Just to switch gears a little bit. You also create content for Ray wendling.com. Can you tell us a little bit about your work there? Adam Rush: I joined Ray's website about is probably about five and a half years ago, which seems like wow, what, where's time gone? And the reason I joined the website back then was they were thinking about launching an interview series column on the website. And I stuck my name in the hat to run it and I managed to get it. And I was running similar to this but written and I was interviewing iOS devs basically in the community and I would release it every every week. So I had Jesse squires Miko Harmon, like that there was quite a few people I did it on, and then it kind of phased over probably six to 12 months and we kind of decided we don't really want to do this anymore. So I I then joined the iOS pillar to do monthly tutorials every month, which was really fun and really successful. And then I kind of took on some videos and then I did a book. Before I knew I was kind of dabbling in all areas of the Ray wonderlic.com website, but it's such a really nice community of people. You just feel part of another team. So it's, it's been really nice being part of that website. Jeroen Leenarts: And you've been doing that for five and a half years. So you mentioned so initially these interviews and then on the iOS team within Raven licks company, really because it's it's it's a website, but it's an entire company that's behind it. So but what's the process that and because you are you mentioned videos, books, articles, who comes up with the ideas for the content, Adam Rush: it's a real professional setup as you can imagine, I mean, the website relies on top notch content, in terms of quality, you know, so it's, it's quality over quantity, really. So rather than pump it out quick, fast articles, it's all about the the quality of those. So essentially, the pipeline works by having a wish list, we use trailer. So we'll have a wish list of new articles new content versus updating previous content. And then essentially, each month you pick one, and then you run it through the pipeline that they have. So the pipeline is you prep an outline. So a very basic, what's the outline of the article, then you do the sample project. So you build up whatever project you need for, for the article. And each point, by the way, we have a final pass editor who will review each stage as it goes through maximum changes if required, then it goes into writing, then it goes into English editing. Then it goes into tech editing. So the technical edit of the article, and then it goes into final pass edit, which is the FP doing a final review of all the changes that have happened, and then it goes into schedule. So from start to finish. So if I started a tutorial, in outline, to been scheduled is probably about two or three months. So that there's enough contact going through. That means you get a new one each week, but we're really in like two or three months behind. Jeroen Leenarts: So as and how does this work out with like the typical cycle in Apple development, because you have like the yearly WWDC and then there's like this big splash of very new API's and new content that a lot of people want to write about. So how does that fit in with this? Two to three months cycle, then forever? Mentally? Adam Rush: Yeah, that's a really good question. They have what they call platinum offers, I think, who are people who can edit their own work, people who've been writing for cert for so long, they just are very good. So they have this group of platinum offers, and they basically dedicate time to the new stuff that's been released so that it gets out quicker. So I think it cuts it down from two or three months to, I think, a couple of weeks. So they work on the new stuff that is come in. It can speed up that process. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay, we talked about three things already. So that your work at stream strictly is conference, and you work for array when elected comm. But you also started a new website recently. Adam Rush: Yeah, so I see this is me, Brandon, myself changing tack a little bit in terms of what I'm where I spend my time. Like I said, previously, I've spent so much of my time dedicated to something that I don't necessarily earn this year for, this is my goal for for the areas to launch of in that it's something that I've thought of my own kind of product if you like. So for of launching my own blog, right, in tutorials, articles, content that's on my own website, which is swiftly rush.com. It's very much kind of what I do already, right in technical content, but on my own website, but using it as a bit of a learning curve as well about how to run a website, how to track SEO, how to make improvements there, how to write good content, how to make it regular, you know, there's so much behind a website, that it's been quite a nice learning curve. Jeroen Leenarts: And what is the biggest challenge behind running the website? And because you've been doing it for I think, a couple months now. Adam Rush: I would say the biggest challenge is motivation. It's when when you work for someone else, you've got deadlines, of course you have people naturally pushing, you know, where is this? How's it going? motivating yourself is is a new skill to learn. I do already kind of have it. I've had to kind of retrain my mind to say, I need to do this article. I must do it tonight. Otherwise, nobody's going to get any new content this week. You know, prime example last night was so here's a bit of a sneaky peek. I've got a new article on metric kit. I had to just kick myself last night to really get my head down on it. Get the content down, get it written so that I can launch it this week. Yeah, I would say for anyone who is interested in in this space? Motivation is is hard. I think everyone will admit that. But you can really sort of train your mind to just, I must do this get the time to do Jeroen Leenarts: this. How do you get into iOS development? Adam Rush: This is often something I don't talk enough. And I probably should. Again, I think it would really inspire other people. I've always been into computers right very much from teenage years sat on a computer playing Habbo Hotel, looking, looking at how how have a hotel have built it using Flash, I remember those days. But I've always been into computers. And when I was kind of leaving school, my brother bought an iPhone free. I was like, wow, that is a cool device. That is a cool phone. And I was massively jealous. And I managed to convince my parents to buy me an iPhone 3g. And it was life changing. I couldn't believe the impact of that device had on me, I was very much so intrigued about how these small squares on the phone could be built. Like how can you launch this on a on a phone. And at that point, I was just even though I was kind of coding websites and doing back end stuff, I was very much like, Oh, this is really interesting. How do I build this, I just so happened to be able to have a look into Xcode and how you build it and read up on some articles and tutorials. And before I knew I built an app, I don't know how it was possible. But I'd built an app, it was completely self taught. Literally from that day, I was so in love with what I built, I managed to just learn even more. And then my first ever job was with a app studio in Leeds actually. And the guy runs out still runs it is a very good friend of mine. And I was doing a bit of everything. I was doing some testing, some manual testing, I was looking into books, I was fixing bugs, I was speaking to the product owners, I was kind of just I don't think I had a job, I was very much doing a bit of everything. But that was it was so important for me because I was finding the books, I was fixing them. And it was at that point really started to build up my development skills, engineering skills. I'd learned on an evening, I was just obsessed with iOS development. And then I was there for a few years. And that's when I applied for my first kind of junior iOS developer job. And you know, I've never looked back I've devoted 10 plus years to iOS, which is unbelievable to think 10 plus years, it's like over a decade. Jeroen Leenarts: So but you mentioned something interesting as well that you already had an interest in computers, when you got involved with iOS devices and iOS development. Did you attend a formal education in something computer science related? Or what was the process there? Because I'm just curious. Adam Rush: Yeah, I didn't attend any, I don't have a CS degree. I don't, I didn't attend university. The only real course or learning I had was was very much, you know, GCSE level, which is here in the UK is is like a, you know, college, basically, it's after school learning, which is, is when I look back very much foundation, it very basic, right, a bit of a Python application. You know, it's very, very basic. So I don't, I wouldn't say that helped. Massively. So So for me, I would say is completely self taught. And I think this is it just shows the power of if you are, if you're excited by suffering, if you've got the passion for suffering, you can really, really explore it and learn. You've got to have the motivation. Don't get me wrong. And you've got to be excited to do it. But it's possible Jeroen Leenarts: that you got involved with computers at a young age, probably playing video games a lot. And then at some point, you grew an interest in software development. And but what education do you exactly have? So you went to high school? I think it's called in the UK as well. Yeah. And then these, this college level program that teaches some basic programming skills with Python, and then what so what's your first job immediately right after that, with this app development studio in Leeds, or was there something in between? Adam Rush: Now, pretty much that was the first job so my main use of time I guess, at that point was self teaching. I've it most of my family for I was just do what you described there play video games, but there is a lot of use of time of just learning building apps. I remember building a football app, which was what kind of me a little bit of money and I managed to buy a new iMac at the time, which is how I took it next level to be able to have the hardware to build my apps. And then I just built the soundboard apps like Africa. Everyone built one of those, and just kept on learning and learning until I felt comfortable to actually apply for a job. And yeah, I kind of got the job. And then that was it. Jeroen Leenarts: That's really cool. Because just That's an entirely self taught path that you took what was actually your first computer that you got your hands on? Adam Rush: Well, so we had like a shared family computer that we all had, it was I think it well, it was windows in the early days. It was like an Acer or something like that. Or maybe he I think it was Toshiba, and I think I still own that laptop. I'm pretty sure it's somewhere in my house, the very first laptop we had was the was the Macintosh that had the ball at the bottom and then was on like an arm. And then yet the flat screen would say and save some money I got, I think I'm pretty sure it was called the iMac, it was a flat screen, but it was very bulky. And then was on the stand, adapt. That's where I kind of learned did most of my development. I've still got that Jeroen Leenarts: I'm seeing a trend here. They all still have that iPhone 3g lying around somewhere, possibly. Yeah, you got started with iOS development, like right from the start in the in the iOS three days. So that's pretty much that the the moment that Apple opened up their developer ecosystem to iOS apps, or iPhone apps, we should say actually, because iPhone wasn't beginning. And you getting involved with with software development more and more, that that's like very fortunate coincidence rated that the timing of those two things you getting done with which education and then this happening so that you could pick up on that technology? And basically, right, the the adoption wave a little bit? That's very fortunate, I think, is that correct? Adam Rush: Yeah, I would, I would agree with that. I would say back then it was far easier to make a few pounds on the App Store. Because you know, there was nowhere near the level of of apps available there now. But also the quality of apps on the App Store is so high. If you want to get noticed it's it's far more difficult now than it was then. So I would say I was lucky. But in the same breath, I did work so hard on this on this app. And I remember actually standing outside of the football ground actually handing leaflets out to download this app. So I was like, I must have this money to buy this computer. Because this is this is makeup. So I was I was even handed leaflet. So I mean, that is just bonkers. Really, when you look back, you know, but it worked. I had over 10,000 downloads of this application, I hit the radio, and I hit the newspaper. I do I do say I'm lucky to sort of be able to to make it at that point. But there was there was so much hard work involved, of course, I'm not gonna say it was easy. And actually, I think anyone who joined the industry at that time will probably agree, we, we had to learn quite a lot more, I would say fundamental programming concepts at that point, because you're talking pre arc, so we had to deal with all their memory allocation manually. We had Objective C, which wasn't the easiest of languages to understand. So I would say we were quite lucky, because, of course, Swift now is so they do so much behind the scenes, you don't necessarily need to understand so many of those those concepts. So I would say it did me, especially a favor, join in at a time so that I could get my head around these concepts. I still use those today. You know, if we're debugging memory issues, you know, how does this look and you sort of draw back on what you'd learn 10 years ago, whereas I think if I'd have joined now, in the Swift days, I don't forget up that same level of understanding, Jeroen Leenarts: having done manual memory management, and then having gone through the the arc transition and to actually understand what what Swift does in the background with memory. It's really helpful there immediately touch upon a point that I wanted to ask you about, because how was that transition for you? Moving from Objective C, with all the bells and whistles that were in place at that point in time into Swift because I've heard different stories about how people's experience was making the transition from Objective C to Swift. Adam Rush: Yeah, I was quite a late adopter to be honest. I wasn't Wouldn't that was jumping straight in writing the Swift code I was very much like oh, no, not not quite sure about this yet. Because it had been so involved in in Objective C and I was kind of comfortable. Then really windy like I said, right? Everything we do now is swift. That's That's all we're writing swift only. And at that point, I was like, wow, okay, this is this is happening. This is a fin. And I was unfortunate because the company was up. I'm trying to think where was that. But the company I was at was, was Objective C, they had no plans of moving. So in my day job, I was writing Objective C, but then of course, that were when like sight would say, right, we're doing swift only. So it's very much like, right, I need to do swift in my own time, because the day job isn't doing it. At that point, it was very much a ramp up, I kind of move jobs, I was doing Swift. And then before I knew I was only doing Swift, but I would say I was a late adopter. You know, I can't remember exactly the version. But I definitely wasn't version one or two, for sure. I probably saw a bit of it, but I wasn't at all doing enough of Jeroen Leenarts: it. Yeah, that that basically means that you skipped most of the big language translations that you had to do on each Xcode update, because still remember those, you had everything running in in a swift version, and then a new Xcode version comes out. And you have to, first of all, let the waiter do a lot of things. So that stuff is like horribly broken, and then spent like a day fixing the rest of your source code to be compatible with the new version of the Swift compiler. So we were fortunate enough to skip most of that, by the sounds of things. But do you still use Objective C A lot nowadays? Or is it more just a language that you use for for referencing material and understanding what's more or less happening in the Swift language? Adam Rush: Yeah, I remember hearing some horror stories about the migration of Swift versions. I can, I can definitely relate to that. But so in my previous job, more recently, they still had an Objective C, code base in the sense that all the legacy stuff was Objective C, and all the new stuff was was swift. So So I still had to tinker. Every now and again. I said, Tinker, because we wasn't really writing, we would just kind of maintain it. But now, especially in this job, Swift, only, you know, stream we have, I think, zero Objective C, actually, I think there's probably some old legacy Reapers that have been archived, but from, from my knowledge, I don't think we have any Objective C. Right. Now, I've not looked at Objective C for a few months. I don't plan on doing so. You know, I joke about it, but I truly respect that language. Because, wow, that's how I began, you know, I won't forget it, I'll always keep looking at it. Because that was great times for me, you know, and it is a good language. It's a powerful language, despite the, the negative it gets, but it was, it was great, you know, so I still respect that the language, but I don't plan on using it, if I can avoid it. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, the one thing with with Objective C that I really like is that the verbosity of the signatures that you're dealing with, so quite often the you, you were calling some message, and it was like, You're just calling that message was already like 40 characters long, and then you still needed to add arguments to it. And that I really enjoyed that. Because yeah, it was a lot of typing. Of course, code completion was was also helping. But then in reference, when reading the code, it was, for me at least, it was much easier to understand what was actually going on, because there's so much information in just the message signatures alone. And then, of course, on top of that you have documentation. So I think we pretty much are getting to the position that we're a full circle. Now. Is there anything that we do still need to talk about? Or did we forget anything? Adam Rush: I was just going to say, as well, as some companies that are still dedicated themselves completely to Objective C, I can't remember which company it was. But I'm pretty sure there was like a big tech companies like saying, We're just not adopting Swift. So I still think there's still quite a lot of Objective C, in the industry. I don't know what you think about that. Jeroen Leenarts: I know that there was at least a period that if you want to develop an SDK, then it was much easier to do that in Objective C, because delivering the SDK, either to Objective C or Swift and users was much more easier, because that was like a very well known path. And there was some support for some features missing in Swift. So to be able to do it correctly, especially the module stability, that that has been like added not too long ago. Because before that, the only way that you could publish a swift based SDK was by having like all kinds of different versions precompiled or doing the source level release. And now with ABI stability, we you can at least like just compile something and have it work on range of Swift compilers, because that was one of the biggest issues before. Yeah, with delivering a swift based library to end users. Yeah. So I think that that really prevented adoption of Swift for about, basically, library developers. Because quite often with library developers deselection, propriety things going on, and they just want to keep the exact implementation details close at heart. But nowadays, you can, you can see with which stream, even though the SDK is fully open source, it's much easier to for us to deliver an SDK to our end users, because we can just deliver a version of the SDK, and we just need to make sure that the minimum version of the SDK is well, not it, we shouldn't be using the Bleeding Edge version of Xcode, but you know, just one or two versions back and then at least most of our end users can just use the SDK without issue, regardless of what exact version of Swift they're using at that point in time. Adam Rush: Yeah, that makes sense. I just wanted to say as well, like it'd be rude, kind of not to include this, but I am hiring it stream. It's been so much fun here at stream, we do have open roads actually on on the SDK they've just been talking about. So yeah, I would just say if people listening are interested in in China to me or you as well, then, you know, definitely reach out to us. Or you can view our open roads on catch stream Diab. Because, yeah, it's, it's good fun, right, Jeroen Leenarts: just working here since since November and really enjoying myself. And what I noticed is that the the entire group of people that I've been working with thus far, is everybody is really on top of the game, they they're very knowledgeable on the work that they're doing. And it's a very open culture, people want to share things and help each other out. And on top of that, there's a lot of room and attention for the person behind the keyboard. So it's what I noticed, one of the reasons I started working at stream is also because it fits in very nicely with my family life. Because I have some challenges there with having to spend some time on specific things, at somewhat odd hours, maybe for a regular nine to five job. But with stream, that's just not an issue, you just need to declare what you need, make sure that you get your work done that you promise to deliver. And if you do those two things, then everybody's very happy with whatever you're doing in your day to day. And I think that's one of the on top of that technically challenging work. It's it's one of the biggest benefits that you actually can have when working at stream. I agree Adam Rush: with that. And as well, especially for me, I'm spending so much time sitting down with the engineers and the team and working out what's next for them. So they've always got something to work towards, you know, in terms of progression and, and stuff. So yeah, it's definitely an exciting time. So just a small hint that we are hiring. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay, well, I'll make sure to just make sure that people can find you me online, on Twitter, because Twitter DM is probably the easiest way. For listeners of my podcast to reach out to the both of us. It is indeed a bit of a weird episode for me, because it's a bit of a crossover episode for me, because I work at streaming, I'm interviewing somebody who works there. So but I hope that I was able to just keep the company line a little bit on the background and focus on on Adam, the person doing software development. And yeah, I look forward to to hear what people think of your journey. And if you have any questions, I'm sure that they can reach you online. So what is your Twitter handle? Actually, Adam Rush: you can reach me on Twitter, Adam known rich, I'm also on other social platforms as well as LinkedIn. And yeah, I'm quite active, I post out all my articles that I've published. And I also have swiftly rich weekly, which is a weekly newsletter, which also curates content from swiftly rush but also content from other amazing developers in the community as well, so you can subscribe on swiftly rush.com as well. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay, well, I think we're done then Adam. Probably talk to you some more later today on some other topics that are work related. And thanks for your time, and really enjoyed our conversation. Yeah, Adam Rush: thanks for having me.