Mohammad Azam, trainer and teacher

Jeroen Leenarts: Hi, and welcome to another special episode, I'm sitting here with Muhammad Azam. He's a Udemy publisher. He has YouTube videos. He's a teacher by trade. And he pretty much does a lot of things related to software development, and especially, at least in the capacity that I know him on iOS development. So Mohammed, welcome. Hi, how are you doing today? Mohammad Azam: Thank you so much for having me. I'm doing great. Jeroen Leenarts: So just to dive in, straight up, you just finished classes today, like a few minutes ago? What topics do you teach professionally? Mohammad Azam: So I work for a company coding boot camp called Digital crafts CRF. Ts, and I teach full stack web development. So you can think of we start with JavaScript and Python. And then we move on to server side code with node and express databases, react to Redux, and all of those cool things. So it's basically at end of 16 weeks, you will be a full stack developer applying for jobs. And yeah, making apps. Jeroen Leenarts: Cool. So um, so you're a teacher by trade, but you also have Udemy courses and you create YouTube videos. Could you say that teaching is something that you just love doing? Mohammad Azam: Yeah, I started teaching professionally, around maybe a couple of years ago, probably like around four or five years ago, when I was hired by the iron yard. At that time, which way the largest boot camp, I think it was the largest boot camp in the world. Shut down to now I am teaching for digital crafts. But even before that, when I was working as an iOS developer, and as a Microsoft dotnet, developer, ASP dotnet, I was always creating videos writing a lot of articles for different website, like code project, ASP Alliance and pushing videos on YouTube. So I was always in like sharing whatever I'm learning, and trying to share what you know, in the form of articles as well as videos. Jeroen Leenarts: So it seems like you've been doing this software development thing and teaching about it for quite some time already. When was it that you started your career? professionally? Mohammad Azam: I came to us in 2002, from Pakistan as a student, and then I graduated around 2005. And from 2005, I started working for university where I graduated from University of Houston. And I worked there for around like maybe one or two years, I think it was like 18 months or two years. And then I became a consultant for a consulting company worked with a lot of oil and gas companies, located in Houston, Texas, also went to Austin to work over there. Also work with large retailer that's a lead mobile developer, so a lot of working as a consultant, and then the full time employment. And then it was I think, around 2016, when I joined iron yard as an instructor for iOS development. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay. And you're already mentioned that you're originally from Pakistan, and you came to the US through your education to get a university degree. Mohammad Azam: Yes, I came to us in 2002 As an international student. And so I had to go to the university to study and all that stuff. I mean, those were really kind of like very weird kind of years, because I was just, you know, working and working and working and try to pay my tuition, and all that stuff. So it was it was kind of hard, four or three or four years that I had to deal with. But then after that year, I mean, I graduated, applied for jobs, got the jobs and everything. So after that, it was much, much nicer. Jeroen Leenarts: So and how did you sort it did the education that you did at university was that also related to software development was computer science or something? Mohammad Azam: Yes, my degree was in Bachelor of computer science. Although my degree was in computer science, like undergrad, I don't think I learned much from the degree itself. So I think what really mattered, for me at least, is what I was learning on my own. So even though I was not really taking any similar classes on anything, I was working like crazy hours. I was always reading books about C sharp ASP dotnet dot dotnet development, because in Houston dotnet is very, very popular. And most of the enterprise companies, they use dotnet for their software. And it is I think it is because of that work that I did, and all those nights that I was reading books and all that that helped pave the way for many job opportunities in the future. Jeroen Leenarts: I can imagine because I worked at a company at the start of my career as well, that was completely focused on anything Microsoft related. And I was part of a small team that did stuff that was Sun Microsystems related so Java. So but I reckon that's the was a reason that you opted to do a computer science degree when you were still in Pakistan. So what was your first experience with computers? Mohammad Azam: Yeah, I think in Pakistan, when I came to us, or whenever even growing up at that time, there was not really much to choose from. I mean, it was become an engineer, or become a doctor. So that's basically you have two choices. And I think it was my uncle's, who are over already in computer science, and they were working professionally, who kind of introduced me to databases, it introduced me to ASP, I think it was called ASP active several pages at that time. And that allowed me to start learning on my own, you know, installing different things and all that. So that was kind of like the initial phase of where I got a little bit more excited about learning GW basic learning about C language and terrible C language. And then obviously, jumping into VB dotnet, and C sharp and then to ASP. dotnet in the future. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, because if you if you if got started with ASP. Net, ASP dotnet, then there was still like, the VB six days, I think, yeah. And that that that must be before 2001. I think, Mohammad Azam: probably, I think it was even Bi It was around that time. Yeah, yeah, cuz Jeroen Leenarts: I know that. Because when I got started in my career, I got started with ASP, dotnet 1.1. But this whole code behind thing and was very interesting. But yeah, in the end, I went to Java, like you went with, with hp and hp dotnet. And so what what made you transition from that into your current role? Because you mentioned already that you do full stock, full stack software development, and also that there's a big component of iOS development in there. So how did how was that process for you, because doing enterprise II stuff with the Microsoft stack, and then going to like a much more open source based stack like you are right now that that's quite a transition and a lot of technologies that you have to get familiar with. So can you tell a little bit about that? Mohammad Azam: Yeah, I think the transition from Microsoft stack to going to a full stack, which involves like Node and express and react and Redux and all those kinds of things. For react and Redux, I had to learn those. But for learning node, it was more of a reference kind of thing. So node is equal to maybe running a server in C Sharp and SP dotnet, maybe like a web API kind of thing. So relations, and those kinds of reference point really helped me learn things much quicker, C sharp, JavaScript kind of same, obviously, C sharp to the way more strict than JavaScript. But the language itself, I mean, that was much easier to learn. From talking with the perspective of iOS, I started iOS, learning iOS, probably around 2010, when one of my colleagues who is very, very interested in Apple products, and he would buy any Apple product that Apple releases, he just kind of told me that well, you can make apps you can earn money from your apps. And he can introduce me to the world of iOS, and kind of convinced me to buy a Mac right on the spot. And I bought the Mac, I think it cost like $1,100. And I'm like, Okay, now I have to pay for this Mac because I just bought it. So I started making apps. And my first step was ABC profits, like a cute scheme, which made around like 1000 or $1,500. And I was after that I was hooked. Because once you have the device, like iPhone in your pocket all the time, and you just interact with it, it becomes more kind of like an intimate or personal relationship. So it was more personal. And I think I mean, I really enjoyed working with iOS and iOS, creating iOS applications. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay, so as you mentioned already, you you started your career at university with your first job, then you transitioned into, I think you mentioned iron yards, is that correct? Mohammad Azam: I started the university and then after that for at least six years or so I did consultant. So I was a consultant with different companies. And I was working with Fortune 500 companies developing their mobile apps or their websites and stuff. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay. So and along this entire journey, initially ASP, ASP dotnet and then into the other technologies and iOS development. You also were creating YouTube videos, I think and also Udemy courses, is that correct? Mohammad Azam: Yes, YouTube, I think started way before so probably around maybe 2012 2013 I was cleaning I was not really creating consistently so I will create a video and then for a couple of months I would not create a video. I think it was after I was introduced to Udemy which was probably around 2016. And I published my first course on Udemy, which was about map kit development for iOS maps and Apple Maps. And I made like, $24 for that particular month, but I was like, okay, you know, I learned something new, it was fun learning. And I want to learn something else. Like, I want to learn server side slave Graph QL, I want to learn something different. So I just create videos and videos and courses on Udemy. And now I have I think, 20 plus courses and close to 56,000 plus students on Udemy. Jeroen Leenarts: So I'm what makes you decide if you create some video content, which either way, or if you put it on YouTube, or you put it on Udemy. And there's a big investment that you need to do in time, because you have to learn the subject, and you have to teach the subject. And of course, the best way to learn something is through teaching is something that I've heard time and time again. So but what makes you decide whether or not you put something on YouTube, or you put something on Udemy? Mohammad Azam: I think YouTube, I would sometime create series, like I don't really create that many series on YouTube. I mean, I am working on one series on YouTube, which is like creating the whole app. But usually, if it's a series oriented structure, then I would probably create a Udemy course for it. But if this is like an individual thing, like how do you access data, Core Data, and how do you display code it and serve UI or things like that, this, this can be done in like 30 minutes or an hour. So those things I can do for you too. And always, I mean, I want my YouTube subscribers to also check out my Udemy courses because they're more complete and more thorough, seven to 10 hours in some, some courses, or even 25, or plus hour courses, like on surf UI. So definitely people who are watching YouTube, they end up buying Udemy courses, and they enjoy those courses. Jeroen Leenarts: So basically, the free content on YouTube is, is a big push for people into your paid content. So but how did you got? How did you get started with creating YouTube videos about software development, because that's, I think, two completely different skills that you need to display there. Of course, on the one hand software development, then you have to the teaching of it, and also then the production and editing of the videos. So that's, that's quite a skill set that you need to get familiar with, and then execute upon. So what made you get started with this? Mohammad Azam: Yeah, started with I started with writing articles, and I wrote like, probably around 2000 Plus articles on development, maybe even more than that. But video content, I always love because I think I can produce more videos and less time because I just am not really interested in that money writing articles. And it's always like a barrier for me to write articles and books and these kinds of things. So I am just good at recording videos very fast. And Sunday, it's just a skill that I have developed over the course of 10 plus years, then I can record the whole 30 minute video on YouTube or for YouTube. And it will be one whole shot. So there will be no editing anything. And so that's something that has developed over the course of 10 plus years, that has allowed me to produce content and longer content on YouTube. Also, most of the time, I don't really edit unless I'm completely stuck on some bug or something that is unexpected, then I would edit those videos. But usually when you see my YouTube content is just one whole long shot. Okay, for preparation for those kinds of things, you I obviously have to write the code beforehand. And as a backup, so I can refer to that code if I miss something out. So that kind of preparation allows me to, you know, not do the editing that much, because I'm not going to make that many mistakes, hopefully. And I have tools like something called Demo Pro, which allows me to perform annotations on the screen. So that also cut a lot of time for editing. So I can just do live edits. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay, so yeah, that that really, yeah, that really tightens down your workflow and also your capacity to produce content. And so but if people are considering getting started with producing content, that's video based, what are the best tips that you can can give to an iOS developer in that regard? Mohammad Azam: I think my best tip would be to just get started. You don't have to have a $10,000 microphone and a $20,000 computer. I mean, it is after probably 10 plus years that I was able to buy an iMac that I'm using right now to record all of the things. I was using a normal you know, a MacBook Pro like a 13 inch computer So it's not like if you have the best of the best only, then you can do it, you can and you can see that my is the microphone that I use, that's just a Apple EarPods. So I don't have a $300 microphone. The other thing that is very important, either you should create videos on subjects that you're passionate about. So if you're passionate about iOS development, or a certain topic in iOS development, like Core Data, or maybe networking, or AR kit, then you should create courses on those things. Because even if you if you don't have passion, and even if it's more of your sound coming in, you're not showing your face on the video, your sound will translate that you have no passion. So so that's why it's very important to make videos on subjects that you are passionate about. And you just have to get started, I create videos slowly, because I have a full time job. And it usually takes me a long time to produce a course. But you have to be consistent. So in a real life, you have to be a tall boys, who is just consistently moving, moving, moving, and eventually you will finish the you will reach the finish line. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay. And for instance, if you create one of those big series on Udemy, like 20 plus hours, how do you keep the consistency in in tone of voice? And maybe even the way that you look if you have some shots of yourself on screen? Because I imagined that 20 hours of video content is not something that you produce in one day. Mohammad Azam: Yeah, yeah. So for for my courses, or the 20 or 24 hours, what usually I do is, I don't really record 20 plus hours a day for the first version of the course. So the first version might contain only 10 hours. But then throughout the course of the year, when I learned new things, or new things comes out in Swift UI or some other codes, I would add a couple of more hours and couple of more hour and couple of more. And then it turns out to be 24 or 25 hours. In terms of consistency. I don't really use that much stuff to for recording. I mean, it's just Camtasia. And I just make sure that I'm always recording and doing the voice elimination, like some sort of background sound, and all of those things are being removed. And I will just remember and write down the settings of my initial recording, and I will use that setting for throughout the whole. Whatever we do, I will record. So okay, yeah, that's pretty much Jeroen Leenarts: and and considering that you have a job teaching and the things the video content that you produce is also basically its teaching. How much time do you spend on keeping up to date on new developments? Because every year, Apple has like this big WWDC event with a lot new with a lot of new content. And but also with all the full stack stuff. There's also a lot of technologies and a lot of moving parts involved that that keep on changing all the time. So how do you keep yourself up to date on all these different technologies, so that you can keep on telling a consistent story to your students and your viewers? Mohammad Azam: Yeah, so for my coding boot camp where I work, we already have a set content that every instructor needs to teach. Now that does change, but it doesn't really change that much. So sometime, we will talk about, hey, we're going to use this for deployment. But sometimes they will say we will use Amazon, AWS for deployment. So probably in a year, one or two things will change or get updated. But it doesn't really change that much. And it doesn't really really need to change. It's not like that we are teaching something that will get old or some I mean, it's all relevant stuff that we are teaching at the boot camp. And the great thing about what we are teaching at the bootcamp is that it is relevant in every single city in the US and in the world. So you don't have to be like in Houston, where it is all dotnet or in San Francisco or whereas a lot of iOS development going on the course and the content that we have selected for the bootcamp, it allows us to teach the same thing that can be relevant in pretty much everywhere. Now, how do I so in that, in that sense, when it doesn't really change that much, it's easy to get up to date. But for Apple content where I'm creating Udemy courses, whenever dub dub DC comes around, so that is a little bit of a hack, hectic week, because I need to look what's going on. And sometime I will just pick certain things that I need to focus on which is like surf UI, or combine which was like last year or AR kit and from there I can go and create courses on them. I mean, I don't usually go and re record 25 plus hours of Sophie why because it You know, 15, you can do this and you can do that, I would probably start adding some new lectures to the existing course. And unless the course or the technology has changed so much like vapor to vapor three to vapor for that you need to record the complete course, then I would do that, but for small changes like this, you can just add on new electronics. Jeroen Leenarts: So, um, so, we talked a lot about what you do, as a, as a professional. So, let's dive a little bit into you as a person. Because you have, I think, not very standard backstory, because you're an immigrant from Pakistan, to the US through your education. So, at what age did you get your first hands on a computer? And what type of computer was that? Because I imagined that in Pakistan, the opportunities are not as abundant as in the Western world, so to speak. So So what was it like for you to grow up in, in a country like Pakistan? Mohammad Azam: Yeah, I think we maybe some people have maybe like the wrong view of Pakistan? Well, we belong to, Well, luckily, we belong to a upper middle class family. So my father was always like, bringing us like, you know, like the computers. I mean, they he, we were able to buy all of those things. But I guess at that particular time, when we, when we got the computer, I think I was probably 13 or 14 years old. And obviously we were using computer as kids to just to play games. And that's pretty much it. I think it was around 16 years when I got with, like the GW basic, and I started learning those kinds of things. And I don't remember the computer, I think it was like even before 286 Whatever the computer was at at that time, I don't remember. But it was there. Yeah, with a floppy, large floppy disk and no hard drive and those kind of things. And yeah, so once I started running GW basic starting like, really small applications. Then I moved on to learning Turbo C, using the ball and I think I returned, it was like all blue screen and everything. And, yeah, from there, I think it started my interest more interest in computers. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay. And is it for students in Pakistan? Is it is it the normal path to go to the US to get like a broader education? Or are there other countries that students often go to from their home country? Mohammad Azam: I think from Pakistan, majority of the people definitely go to us. Other countries also in Kulu, include Canada, and UK. But I think majority of people definitely end up going to us to get higher education. And then they try to settle in us if it's possible for them. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay. But then then, I wonder why. Specifically the US and you also mentioned Canada and UK. But what is it about us that is so appealing? Is it like the land of opportunities, or what there must be some reasoning going on there? Mohammad Azam: I think for me, personally, my, pretty much most of my relatives were already settled in US and in Texas to be like to be even, like more narrowed down. So Houston, San Antonio, and Austin. So that's why my parents actually suggested that I should go to a university in the US, which is in Houston, so that I can possibly get some support from them also. So for me for that part, that was the reason for me, at least going to a US. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay, and is it hard to get into the US from Pakistan? Because I have no idea. Mohammad Azam: Yeah, I came in 2002. So I had to go through a lengthy security procedure and all those kind of things. So it was kind of hard, I actually missed my orientation and universities, I was not able to get in time. So I missed most of the couple of days for orientation. And I was just when I came then next day was my class. So it was kind of academic situation. And I was living with my aunt at that time, because I just arrived. And in order to go to the university, I had to take like four or three buses, which will take me three hours one way. So it was I was basically living in the bus for for close to three months, because I was living with my arm during that time. And luckily, in a month or so I was able to find a job in the university on campus job. And I was able to purchase a very, like small kind of apartment share with a roommate that was very close to the university. And that saved me a lot of obviously time traveling and kind of like living in the bus. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, and also a lot of energy of course you had to spend on other things. And so but luckily you you went to university, you started your career, and what are your plans? Lance right now at the moment, because you have your day job going on, you have like your Udemy course courses going on. You do iOS development here in there. But what's in store for you at the moment, Mohammad Azam: I really like my day job because I get to change people's I mean, in a small way people's life, I mean, these people, I mean, these students who are coming are coming from different backgrounds. Some are, you know, working as some guys as a restaurant, some are working as scuba divers, I mean, I have some real estate, and they're all coming to our boot camp for, to learn programming to apply those principles of programming to get a better job in the end. And I mean, I have worked with many different companies, oil and gas companies, retail companies and finance companies. And the most joy that I receive is when I am teaching, and I can see that it's changing someone's life in a way that they're finding new jobs, I mean, I have some students who are actually working at Apple, so that that always gives me joy that they're working in Apple, I mean, they work really, really hard and the whole credit to them. But it always obviously, give me a little bit of joy, that that you know, they have able to change their life. And now they have a great opportunity, great job, and even changing their family tree. So So it definitely I want to keep teaching man in one form or the other. And I want to continue, obviously teaching on Udemy. Because I get to learn all of those cool technologies and share it with everyone in the world. Jeroen Leenarts: And but it's always good to get feedback from all students that you've helped. And even as you say, as a teacher, you can only give somebody a small push in the right direction. But so what is one of the biggest success stories that you've experienced with with one of your students? Mohammad Azam: I think there are a lot of students, I think one student that I had was, he was just having like, he was coming from a different background like he was dealing with poverty also. And this was kind of like his last resort. So he had to take out loans to go to the coding school. And I think that I mean, it was like a very sad story when when he told me that he's coming from a poor background, poor family. And it's, it doesn't have even money to pay for that. And his only chance to pay the loan that he had to take out to go to the coding boot camp is to land a job. And I think that story really touched me because eventually he was able to get a job maybe after graduating a month after graduating. And I think that really, I mean, it really feels good that I was part of that his journey. I mean, he did all the hard work, obviously. But I was able to guide him, and he was able to do something for himself and his family. Yeah, those important moments here. Jeroen Leenarts: It really can change the outlook on life if somebody's able to make such a big change in their career. So do you have any products of your own besides Udemy courses available online or on the app store? Mohammad Azam: I used to have and I think I still should have some apps on the App Store. But I don't really update those apps that often. I have, I had a gardening app called vegetable tree. And that had been featured by Apple multiple times when I was developing it and I was releasing it continuously, I think back in 2012 or 2013. So that app should be maybe online, but most of my products now are Udemy courses. I have written few books and I may write another book of on non technical book I've may write for bootcamp, students. But yeah, most of my products are in the form of Udemy courses. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay? And if you look at your day job and the Udemy courses, are the incomes of these two? Are they comparable or is the Udemy thing like it's it's nice, it's fun, it it has some income but it's not meaningful or is really like growing and at some point might even surpass your your regular income. Your Mohammad Azam: income is definitely good and it is growing. It's not at the point of that I can ever leave my day job. But I definitely appreciate the Udemy platform and that's why I only publish on Udemy because it has allowed me to live it and allow my family to live a debt free life. So we don't really have any debt anymore. We don't have any car payments. We don't have any you know whenever took out student loan anyways. But we don't have any house payment, no mortgage, no nothing. And it is because of the income that I earn additional income on Udemy, that I was able to support that. And I love to go to different places like in nature and mountain and hiking. And I usually use my Udemy income that I received to go to these adventures. Jeroen Leenarts: Now that that's, that does indicate that it is. It is not the large part of your income, but it is it is a fair share, actually, that will help you by create these live calls for you. So you mentioned that you that you like to travel is it like, on the US? landmass that you'd like to travel? Or is it more around the world? Of course, that should not be a pandemic going on then. But is it like that you'd like to see the US countrysides a lot, or is it more broader than that? Mohammad Azam: I think it's more broader. But I unfortunately, I haven't been able to never been to Europe or any country, like over there. I cannot even say that I've been to South Asia, although I'm from Karachi, Pakistan. But that I guess, doesn't count. I mean, I obviously grew up over there. So there are a lot of places that I will want to travel. Right now I have traveled mostly in us, I went to Costa Rica went to Mexico City. But mostly I have traveled in us. And hopefully when this pandemic is over, I will be able to at least go one time to Europe to one country. So I can say I've been to Europe. But yeah, I want to go to I usually want to go to in an ideal world, I want to go to places where not many people go like Siberia, where it is like minus 80 Fahrenheit or minus 50 temperature with a freezing like freezer, I mean, even more colder than Antarctica. So I want to experience that I want to go over there and experience those kind of things. So definitely one day, maybe I'll be able to go to those places, even Antarctica, and all of those places. But right now, it's mostly inside us that I've been traveling. Jeroen Leenarts: And what's the what's the first thing that you're going to visit? Once once once it's possible, considering the circumstances in the world? Mohammad Azam: I think definitely I want to go to Europe, and the country that I would visit Europe is Netherlands, because my wife is from Netherlands. So she will be our tour guide and she knows Dutch. So already she she knows everything there is to know because she was she grew up over there. So that's definitely the number one in the list. So where she from in the Netherlands? She was born in Amsterdam in Netherlands. Yeah, okay. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah. Yeah, cuz I'm Dutch as well. And so I live at the other side of the Netherlands, which is by us tends not that far. But you probably could, well, if you're if your school ride was like three hours, then yeah, by car, you would only be like, you would you would go to the other side of the country and back in those three hours. So it's not too big. So besides all the things that we've talked about, that also something that you didn't like to do, at least pre pandemic, that was being a speaker at conferences. So you did that quite a lot before. It wasn't possible anymore. But why do you like to be a speaker at conferences? Mohammad Azam: I think when Yeah, when you have that concept of like sharing knowledge and meeting other like minded people, then conferences is just a great event to attend. And obviously, like physical conferences are, for me at least much better, because I love to interact and share, learn more about their stories, what they're working on, how they rank, all these kind of different problems. And I have been lucky enough to present it many different conferences. Some in us some in Mexico, I was also scheduled to present in Chile, in South America, but unfortunately, I had to cancel for some family emergency. But yeah, it's always fun for me to present anything related to iOS or web development. And it's always great to, you know, meet like minded people and share my knowledge with them and then get feedback and result that maybe this is the best way to do it. Or maybe this is the best way to do it. So learning is just a continuous learning a lifelong learning, which speaking, engagement definitely provides. I think before pandemic what I was doing, which is kind of weird, and most people maybe don't realize, but what I was doing before pandemic is I would contact just randomly some places like Portland, Oregon, or Boston, and I would just contact them I would contact the organizer, I would say, hey, I want to come and present. You don't have to pay me you don't have to pay for anything. I will just come on my own dime on my own time. And I will just present I would do a workshop free of charge. And sometimes they get like confused like why would you do that? Why? Why are you coming for free and these kinds of things. No airfare no hotel. And I tell them that I want to I do it because I want to thank the community also, that they are, you know, they go to My Courses and they have supported me throughout my journey. And now I want to visit your beautiful city of Boston or Portland, Oregon. And I want to meet with you and present so then definitely something I want to carry on. After this, this is all over like pandemic is over. Jeroen Leenarts: At the end if you if you visit an event like that, either like a workshop or a conference, or maybe even like an on site, where the company is it something that is a is it like something that you do solo so you fly out solo, or it's more like a family thing that you travel to the city? Mohammad Azam: Yeah, usually, I mean, fly out solo. So this also gives me a chance to, to travel the city. So I've done that with Portland, Oregon. I was trying to do that chili, I was scheduled for everything. And for Boston, I did a arcade workshop. So yeah, so and Mexico City. So that's always fun to go to these places, visit the city, experience the culture, people, and also do the presentations. Jeroen Leenarts: So and you already mentioned some of the topics that you provide presentations on. How much preparation do you put in like, say, an hour long conference talk? Mohammad Azam: Sometime it can go for a couple of weeks of presentation and my presentation are very code oriented. So I usually just use two three slides, which are just introduction. But after that, I just jump into actual code. So I'm one of those rare people who would do the live coding on the spot. So yes, so whenever you're doing live coding, you have to prepare a lot. Because even if you're stuck for like 10 seconds, it can feel for the audience that you're stuck for 10 minutes. So you have to be very quick. Jeroen Leenarts: So would you say that your life onstage presentation is quite similar to the way that you create, for instance, a video for YouTube, so that you you prepare yourself well, and then you have your notes, you have your projects on the site available if something goes wrong, but then you just do the coding, like live, or at least you're recording yourself or YouTube video, Mohammad Azam: it's similar to that. Usually, I don't have the project to refer to. So if I do get stuck, I am stuck at that point. But usually what I do is, if I'm stuck, I would just move on to the next thing. But you I have practiced so much that usually I don't really get stuck at at those things. But if that's happens, you just move to the next one. And I think that one of the tricks that I learned with live coding is that you have to show them every couple of seconds, meaning like every 1520 or 30 seconds, that what is the output or else you will be just coding and they will be just watching you code, which we which can be very boring. So you have to take like quick actions like every 3060 seconds, you're just showing them the output that what this code will actually do so to gain their interest and to keep them interested in the talk. Jeroen Leenarts: And what kind of feedback do they usually get after the talks that you performed? Mohammad Azam: I mean, yeah, I mean, I get really good feedback, because usually, I'm the only one who is actually doing live coding in the session, because most of the most of the presenters are using slides and everything like that. So yeah, usually the feedback is very positive. Jeroen Leenarts: Cool, because I really like if a session is done with live coding, but I also, from experience, know how hard it can be. And have you ever gotten stuck in such a fashion that there was no way out, you had to like improvise to such an extent that it at the end of the talk, you would personally consider it a failed talk. But for some reason, audiences are always very forgiving in my experience, but that your own feeling was that you that you've failed at your goal. Mohammad Azam: Whenever I get stuck, I give myself Let's say 10 seconds. And if I'm not able to get out of there in 10 seconds, then I will just ignore that thing and move on to something else. So I would just create something on the fly. Like if I was trying to import something and doesn't work, then I will just const like hard coded or whatever. And I will just move on to the next. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, that does require like having intimate knowledge on what you're trying to create. And you can always refer to the GitHub repository at that will be available at the end of the slide at the end of the presentation, I should say. So yeah, that covers your presentations. You do a lot of content on iOS by day job to do full stack, software development teaching. So why this split why in your own time creates mostly iOS focus content and violin you Do you have like, basically pretty different output that you're creating? Mohammad Azam: Yes, I think I have more passion for iOS development. That's why I want to do that in my own time, like weekends or early morning or late nights when I'm not at work. And that's why I actually do it. iOS only content for my forte, because this is my passion. And most of my students, and most of my followers on also on Twitter, they are iOS developers. So even if I'm just doing something a little bit different, like flutter, they don't really enjoy it. I mean, I enjoy flutter, it's actually great. But they don't really enjoy flutter. So even if I published a really good course on flutter, it doesn't really get downloaded that many times as compared to anything I release on iOS. Because people are more interested in iOS. I mean, I'm more interested in iOS also. But I tend to look out for other frameworks also, like flutter, React Native, and try to see what they're doing. And maybe we can learn our iOS framework and learn from them also. So okay, my focus mainly is iOS and my passion is mainly iOS. Jeroen Leenarts: And from the last WWDC, what were the biggest topics that that really put some fire on your own passion? Yeah. Mohammad Azam: async and await was really good. Like anything in a way to that though Well, awaited feature. And I watched pretty much all the videos, everything like 10 times, dub dub DC videos, and even released a course on a second away. So it's already available on Udemy, which people can download. For free, why changes are good. So if UI is getting more and more mature, and I think the great thing about Syfy while alpha, I found that it's so similar to flutter and React Native that if you just learned so if you aren't, you can easily jump to flutter and React Native also if you want to. So every framework, all all of these frameworks are getting very close and identical to each other with the states and environment and the global object and Redux and all that stuff. So it was a fun dub dub DC a lot of different things. I still have to go through some sessions and watch them again. But it was definitely, definitely a lot of fun. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay. Yeah, I think we covered pretty much everything that we wants to talk about. Besides your own Udemy courses and your YouTube feeds on online, what are some other resources that you highly recommend people should have look at? Mohammad Azam: I definitely recommend you checking out hacking with Swift I want you to also if you're interested in Core Data, definitely check out Donnie balls book about practical core data really amazing book. And I think he died Dannielle also have the book on combine. If you want to learn combine, definitely check that out. Check out Ravindra Lake, those people are doing an amazing job also. So a lot of content, Sean LA, and then we have Stuart also, it's crazy. So Lynch is also creating amazing content for YouTube. So there's a lot of content that iOS developers are just pushing out. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah. But you as a video call and content producer, do you feel that you compete with all these people that provide pretty much similar content? Or is to experience different for you as a content provider? Mohammad Azam: I think it's a little bit different, because most of my students are coming from Udemy. So most of my base, like 50 plus 1000, are on Udemy. And they follow and they have become fans of my work. So whenever I release a course instantly buy it. But I don't Yeah, I don't really see that as a I think as a competition. I see more of a collaboration. I'm learning from other people. They're learning hopefully from from my work. And in the end, we're all trying to get better at iOS development. Jeroen Leenarts: Muhammad, thanks for your time. And yeah, I will make sure that everything is linked up from the show notes, and we'll make sure that people can find your content online. So both on Udemy and on YouTube, and also your Twitter handle, I will make sure that I linked it up. Again, thanks for your time, Mohammed, and hope to talk to you soon again. Mohammad Azam: Thank you so much, and thanks for having me.