Brenden Kumarasamy, master trainer and coach on presenting and public speaking

Jeroen Leenarts: Today is New Year's Eve. And that includes probably for a lot of you some new year resolutions, one of the things you could do for the new year's resolution is to focus more on your public speaking. In line with such a New Year's resolution, I invited Brendan on my podcast, who is an expert speaking coach. You can find Brendon on YouTube with his YouTube channel master talk, where he shares a lot of tips and helpful videos that help to improve your public speaking. So that's master talk on YouTube, link in the show notes. Just for clarity, I am in no way affiliated to Brendan, and Brendan and I decided to do this because this content is such a good free resource. So let's begin. Welcome to another special with Brendon kumara. Swamy. I hope I pronounced that correctly, Brendan, your master talk on YouTube. And Brandon is a bit of an oddball between the normal guests that I have on my podcast, Brandon is actually an expert on public speaking skills. And I wanted to dig into that topic a little bit with him. Because I reckon that a lot of software developers out there, especially in the iOS community, that are looking into ways to do new things in 2021. And I think public speaking can be a wonderful addition to your portfolio. So Brendan, Hi, welcome to my podcast. Of course, it's great to be here. So before we begin and dive into the topic, can you tell a little bit about yourself? Why are you an expert in this area? Brenden Kumarasamy: Yeah, of course, happy to talk about that. So early in my university years, I used to do these things called case competitions. Think of it like professional sports. But for nerds, it was the equivalent of hackathons and computer science in the business world. So essentially, a business gives you a problem. And in three hours, much like how you up to figure out a project and a hackathon, we had to create presentations, and present our solutions to a board of executives at the end of our pitch time. And that's what I did for three years, you know, I probably presented hundreds of times coached us as a people in the communication skills. And then I got a job in the corporate role that IBM is a technology consultant. And that as well as helping a lot of startups gain investments for for their companies. And that's where the idea for Master talk came, I realized that a lot of information on communication is really bad, especially in the free category, your advice, like, oh, you should be yourself or get up on stage and said, What are you supposed to do with this nonsense. And I also notice from from a technical perspective, especially for the software developers out there, a lot of software developers are really good at product and building products. So let's say you have an iOS app, they know how to code it, they know how to look through code and, and understand how to how to execute that. But they have a lot of trouble communicating those ideas in a way that someone who doesn't understand their technology stack would understand, like, What business are you you're trying to solve a problem? Why should I play this game? Why should I use your app? And that's what I really help a lot of founders do. So So yeah, it's been a fun ride since I started the YouTube channel. Jeroen Leenarts: So how long have you been doing the YouTube channel? Brenden Kumarasamy: I've been coaching for five years, but I've been doing YouTube for two, Jeroen Leenarts: and has been a success. Is it growing as you expecting? Or is it above your expectations? Brenden Kumarasamy: Yeah, definitely above my expectations, you know, when I started, I didn't expect this to be a big project. My goal is really to be an executive at a company, you know, work with, with a lot of clients on technology and things like that. Yeah, you know, things, things took a turn for the better. And Master talk, I've had some success. And I'm really happy with with what's happened in these past couple of years. Jeroen Leenarts: So you mentioned your brand master talk. What kind of content can people find on your YouTube channel? Of Brenden Kumarasamy: course. So the goal of master talk is to be an encyclopedia of anything related to communication. So any question you would ever have on communication, my goal is to answer it on the channel. So questions like how do you build relationships really quickly? How do you present to an audience you've never met before? How do you communicate innovative ideas? So I try and answer all of these questions. But of course, if you think there's a topic I haven't covered yet, you're always welcome to contact me, I'm always open to new ideas. Jeroen Leenarts: So if you look at the typical software developer, and that's trying to sell an idea, sell their products, or basically sell a technology, because quite often software developers presented conferences to conference attendees. What are the biggest problems you see, when you're looking at these kinds of talks? Brenden Kumarasamy: Yeah, for sure. I would say for software devs. Mostly, they spent too much time on the tech and not enough time on the benefits of that tech. So they might they might say something like, oh, I use this query or I got this code from this area and I used it to apply and, and build up my tech stack. But someone who's non technical doesn't really care about that. Think about the way that you you would communicate a product or service that you're working on to someone who's very technical, versus how the CEO of that company communicates their product or service at a big conference. So I'll give you an example. Think about Marc Benioff, right? Who is the CEO of Salesforce. When he when he talks about Salesforce as a product at at his event, which is called Dreamforce. He talks about it in a grandiose way, talks about how the world would be a better place with Salesforce how customers can, can go through their leads faster, can raise more money can make more money, he talks about the benefits, that someone who doesn't understand their tech stack, would comprehend and go, Oh, I'm a CEO of a company, I don't know how to code, but I really want to buy this product. Same thing with Steve Jobs, you know, when he started when he was building products, and he was communicating those products, yeah, there's a lot of complexities within the iPhone, or the the Mac or all the different products. But what he communicated those practices general public, he would simplified so much, and example I can give you is the the first keynote he gave on the iPhone, he didn't talk about the plexi glass and how it was developed, or the what chips they used in the back of the phone. Now he said, Look, we got internet, we got music, and we got a phone. And it's all one device, and we're calling it the iPhone. So it's a very simple. So as software developers as technical people, we need to get into the habit of doing, especially if our goal is to be a CTO one day, a CEO, or just a manager or a vice president of engineering at a big large company, the what we need to start thinking about is as we progress through our careers, from software development, management are good, or we start to code less and less, and we start to manage more and more. That's why I think it's so important that people should think about their soft skills, because it'll help you not just communicate your ideas better, but promoted a lot faster to Jeroen Leenarts: Okay. And what you're discussing is really the the career track that you can get as a software developer within a corporate environment. What can you bring to people that are considering themselves self employed, or any developers? Because I reckon speaking, skills are very important in that area as well. Brenden Kumarasamy: Absolutely. So in the context of independent contractors, the same analogy applies, you're selling yourself, right? Why should I hire you as a software developer versus the other seven. And what you'll find, especially in those who are independent contractors, probably already know this, is 100% of all your clients aren't necessarily technical, right? They actually, they might actually be people like, my friend owns an agency in that space where they code ops for people. And a lot of their clients don't know how to code. That's why they're paying you the money to code or develop these products or services. So you need to always get into the habit of communicating your value prop what you can do in a non technical way, because what you're doing for a non technical customer, at the end of the day, is they're solving a problem. I don't really know how to code this up, how do I do it? They don't really, they don't really want to hear your queries or the languages you're using to code it or the process and how you're going to do it. They want to know how much it costs? Is it going to get the job done? Or is it within the budget of what I'm trying to solve for? And if you can answer those questions, and as simple, authentic, when you could build great relationships with your clients, they'll refer you to other people who want to buy from you as well. Jeroen Leenarts: And you mentioned being authentic and building relationships several times already being authentic, what does that mean to you? Brenden Kumarasamy: Right? So I get it right, a lot of software developers might have a lot of trouble kind of building those relationships, as we call them, right? Because they might be a bit more introverted, or that might be a bit more shy. So for me Being authentic means for to first figure out how to connect with people in a way that makes them go, oh, wow, I really like talking to this person. And it's not something you'll get overnight. You know, I didn't always talk like this, you know, when I started, I wasn't very, very good as a communicator, and then over time, I got better. So my advice to people is to always talk to the people you find the most interesting. So one example like to give technical people is especially when COVID is over, go, go participate in more hackathons go participate in project related work, because you'll find other people who are interested in the same things as you. And it's going to be much easier for you to hold conversation with those people. So one exercise, one challenge I give people is when you go to a hackathon, don't just talk to participants, talk to the sponsors that are there and see if you can build relationships with them because you because they're here to see you. Right, they want to talk to you, they want to get to know you. And then over time, as you have more and more conversations, those people you start to get better at expressing who you are more authentically and also a lot more easily. And then when you start to do that with customers and potential clients, it becomes a lot easier as well. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay. So that that covers the authentic parts. And what about the other topic? Brenden Kumarasamy: So So you know, the way I think about relationship building is The a lot of people, overcomplicate things, they go, oh, man, I got to go to this cocktail and talk to 10,000 people and get my business card. Everyone know, the secret to real relationship building that's effective and also less stressful, is find the most interesting person in the room that you find the most interesting. And if they like you, they'll just introduce you to all their friends. And that's it, right? And then that multiplies over time. So one example today is, you know, most of the people I meet I met this year, I met through somebody else. So it was just somebody that I knew who said, Hey, you, too, should like, talk, and they just intro each other. So one easy thing you can do is go up to the five people that you love the most in your life, and just say, Who's the most interesting person that you know? And one of those five people will go, oh, you should probably talk to Jim, or Laura or somebody else. And you'll meet one super interesting people. Because person, I mean, because interesting people tend to know other interesting people. So if you just get one of them to like you, and you just ask for other introductions, not to sell anything, just to talk to more people, you'll you'll probably end up being successful. Jeroen Leenarts: How do you try to broadcast your master talk brands to as much people as possible, while staying authentic, and engaging, even though that's the audience that you're trying to communicate to? are actually people that you can't see that are on the internet you haven't met before? It's basically marketing that you're also trying to do with your content, right? Brenden Kumarasamy: Yeah, of course. So my strategy is two ways. But the biggest part is I cheat. So the way that I cheat is through two ways. The first way is I never present on camera alone. So that means if I'm on a podcast, I'm talking to somebody else. So it forces me to be more energetic, because because there's actually somebody here. But if I'm alone making YouTube videos, there's actually a guy behind the camera who films me. And so he's one of my best friends who does all my production. So that's an easy way of thinking about it. But the other way of thinking about being more energetic is really the it's, I mean, at the end of the day, it it is challenging, right, how do you how do you bring more of yourself, but I would say the second part of that is to have dinner with your audience. And I don't think most people do that enough. Like when I started baster talk, I thought it was a stupid idea. You know, I had like seven subscribers, I was making videos, my mother's basement. And it wasn't really trying that much. But the difference was, I knew who those people were. There were people that I used to coach when I was in university, and they would always give me the feedback of keep doing the video. So I'm watching all of them. And I was like, Okay, maybe I'm onto something. So what I recommend for people who want to share ideas, like in your case with your podcast, one easy thing you can do right now, and COVID is at the end of one of your shows, you could say hey, I'm actually doing free calls, just to get to know people who are listening to me, why don't you send me an email, and I'm pretty sure one of them will send you an email. And then you just get on a call with them. And you just talk to them and get to know them and ask great questions. Or try to write they already like you so that it's going to be an easy conversation. So and then just get to know them. But what the best speakers in the world do is they take this to the next level. They go, Okay, I want to talk to a lot of people. So examples like Tony Robbins, or Gary Vaynerchuk, or even CEOs of technology companies. They talked to a bunch of their customers, Brian Chesky was the CEO of Airbnb is a great example of that, where the first 100 users he knew exactly who they were, where they were from, why they use the service. And he was able to message better his products. So I recommend that for everybody. Jeroen Leenarts: You've been coaching five years, how did you get started with it? Because what what was the trigger for you to actually come to the idea that coaching might be actually something you would be good at? Or you could get good at? And how did he come onto this topic that that's the topic that you want to coach on? Brenden Kumarasamy: Yeah, giving advice and helping people has always been something that's been common throughout my life, even if the advice was generally bad when I was younger, it just I just always wanted to help people. But what happened was when I did competitions, the case competitions that I was talking about earlier, which is similar to hackathons. But in the business world, I got really good at presentations really through my own it was it was the thing that I was good at the same way other guys on my team or gals were much better at finding the solution. Right? It's kind of like the whole dynamic in a technology company where you have somebody who creates the tech stack, and somebody else who sells it. Right? It's different skill sets, right? So in the same way for me, it was always about I'm really good at selling the idea. I'm not really good at making the tech. I'm not really good at coding the app, but I'm good at selling the app. So over time, I developed an expertise in communication. But when I entered the second year of the program, I realized that there was no coaching people on communication. Namely, because we couldn't afford a coach, it's really expensive communication coaches are have cost a lot of money. So I said, Oh, why don't I just teach these, these these students and I wasn't really good at it. To be honest, I was good at speaking myself. But I was terrible at teaching other people communication. So as I messed up a lot, at the beginning, my keynotes weren't that good. I wasn't that strong at it. But over time, because the people I was coaching were really good at communication already, that we learned and figured out how to work together. And I was able to develop a curriculum that started working really well in year three. So after I would say, three, five years of doing this, I got really strong at coaching people and also presenting myself and I was able to bring that expertise into into what I do today. Jeroen Leenarts: So how many people have you coached thus far? Brenden Kumarasamy: Geez, I don't know. I think I lost count after like 100 or something. But I've done this for a long time. So it's been like a couple of 100 people now, in different varies, I would say like very high touch one on one, probably like 60 or 70. If it's like group and like speaking to people, I've probably touched hundreds at this point. Jeroen Leenarts: If you look at any general software developer that's thinking about 2021 and thinking, Okay, I'm, I might try public speaking for a bit, of course, startups here, it will be all remote. But hopefully later in the year, it will be in person at events, conferences, maybe meetups? Who knows? What are the best starter tips that you can provide to somebody thinking about doing this? Brenden Kumarasamy: Yeah, of course, I would say the big thing is always this question, right, that I always like to ask people get started with communication. The question is, how would the world change? If you were an exceptional communicator? And the answer to that question, is going to be different for each person. For some, like one person I met at a hackathon, it was well, if I got better at communication, I could pitch your project that we spent 24 hours on much better, or somebody else, it's, well, I'm a CEO of a company, and of a tech company. And I need to learn how to communicate my tech stack in a way that non technical people want to buy the service. And then somebody else could be I'm the CTO and chief technology officer of a company. And I want my developers to trust me and follow my lead. So I need to communicate to that group of people and be confident, everyone's got their own reasons. But then what we want to keep in mind is that public speaking is not just about presentations, it's about every interaction we have in our lives, it's what makes the quality of our life better. So the better we get at communicating, the easier it is for us to speak more, more easily to the people around us. Jeroen Leenarts: You're also referring to the public speaking that you do, basically already in in a meeting with your peers, or maybe even your manager to actually get a new technical concept across and make sure that there's business support and actual budget available to execute on an idea. Is that correct? Brenden Kumarasamy: Absolutely. You know, the way I see it, especially for software devs, if you're top 10%, of communicators in the world, not even top one like top 10 or 20%, in your industry, that's top 1%. But they're there. That's why CTOs and vice presidents of engineering are very difficult to hire for that actually one of the hardest positions to hire for an organization. Because most technical people generally don't have both. They're either really good communicators, or really good at code, but they're rarely good at both. That it's a combination that makes people really deadly in this industry, right, like the CTO, Facebook, which I'm sure every single tech company wants to steal from Facebook raise as an example. Right. So that's, that's why I think the benefit is, so the first thing I would say is you don't need to speak like me to be really to be to reap in the benefits of communication, your industry. Even if you're doing 10% That, you know, just the basics, the filler words, you're saying lessons in Oz, you're pausing a lot more, you're asking more questions, that already puts you like, at the top of like every because most of my clients, these are technology executives, of companies. And you know, they're, they're not like God's communication, but they're pretty close to me. But in their industry, they're, they're like top 1%. So that's what I really want to push today is this idea that even if you work a bit on your communication, the ROI of doing that not just for your salary, but also your life is huge. So my recommendation is to work on the easy wins. So I'll give you an easy one right now you don't that everyone could practice. It's called the puzzle method. So public speaking is like a jigsaw puzzle. You know those puzzles kind of put together as a family are what used to do. So if I asked you to, let's say you're working on this puzzle, it's not a trick question. Which pieces would you start with first? Normally, Jeroen Leenarts: usually, that's the corners and the edges. And then basically, you start sorting through large fields of a single color. Actually, you're defining the problem into smaller sub sections and trying to grab the easy ones first, before tackling the harder pieces in your puzzle. Brenden Kumarasamy: Perfect. Exactly. So the question is, why don't we do that in public speaking, we have a presentation at work at a conference room in a boardroom. So what do we do? We start with the middle. First, we start shoving a bunch of content or presentation, we get to the presentation, we ramble through the entire thing. We get to the last slide, it sounds something like this. As so thanks. That's probably 95% of all the presentations I hear. But there's a super easy way to fix this. Treat your presentations, like a jigsaw puzzle, start with the edges first, practice your introduction 50 times, not three times, not five times, they do it 50 times. Same thing with the conclusion, what's a great movie with a terrible ending? Last time I checked, terrible movie 50 times. And this is actually not that hard. You know, 50 seems like a big number. But your introduction is a minute. And your conclusion is a minute. So it's going to give it's going to take an hour or two to do all of this. But that hour or two that you spend refining your introduction, your conclusion will already 10x your communication skills, because you'll look at your presentation and go wow, I'm actually pretty good at this. Now let me tackle the middle. Now you have the confidence you need to finish the middle pieces. And much like jigsaw puzzles, I don't know anyone who does puzzles alone, get a team together, get some friends together, get other software developers, right who want to work on their communication skills. We're at hackathons. We're doing great curricular extracurriculars, and work together to get better at communication. Jeroen Leenarts: You already mentioned a couple of those easy wins that you can achieve as a as a speaker, either public or in a meeting AMS in house and I noticed that there was a video of you that you actually have an exercise in 40s, arms and arms. Can you tell a bit about those, because what I noticed with your videos on YouTube is that they're all very practical, and quite easy to follow, actually. Brenden Kumarasamy: Yeah, and I appreciate you saying that. Yeah, so the tip is very simple, that you can do at home. So the exercise, I recommend the video, it's usually with the person. But since it's COVID noun, the the exercise I recommend is called Long stairs. So all you have to do is go up to somebody that you that you know, in your house and just stare at them for five minutes, and don't do anything else. Most people and I would say all software developers at cat last five minutes, they struggle a lot to hold the gaze. And I teach a lot of my executives to focus that gaze for five minutes. And the reason why that's so important is we need to get more comfortable with pausing for long periods of time. And that's the secret that the best speakers in the world don't tell you is that we can pause forever. And never make it seem awkward at all. Right? You got crazy people like me, you can pause for like 30 minutes. But the point I'm driving is simple. If you can pause for five minutes, it's going to be easier for you to pause for two seconds, three seconds, maybe even five seconds in a presentation. And it's going to be easier for you to replace your filler words, your arms as a blurs with nothing. So that way, when you start to replace that those words with nothing, it's going to be much easier for you to sound much better as a speaker. And by the way you don't if you just do that tip, you will already be guaranteed top 5% of all communicators in software development, I can pretty much guarantee based on what I've seen. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay, already some good tips there. Brandon, your master talk on YouTube? And is there any other places online that people should look for your content? Brenden Kumarasamy: I would definitely say that's the best place. But if you want to get in touch, you want to send me a message on Instagram, you want to email me, all of my contact information is on the YouTube channel. So don't be shy to reach out there. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay. Well, Brendan, thank you very much for your time, and I really enjoy talking to you. Of course, the Brenden Kumarasamy: pleasure is mine. If you Jeroen Leenarts: have any feedback, please contact me on Twitter at app Force One. I'm really looking forward to what you think of my episodes. Also share my episodes with your friends, colleagues and family because every downloads counts. I've also been receiving a number of reviews on Apple podcasts, and it's been great because they really helped me show up in the search on Apple podcasts as well thank you very much for that and then my final podcast words of 2020 Happy New Year everybody and I hope to see you in 2021