Tim Isenman, creator of Pocket Rocket a product that allows him to stay in Japan

Jeroen Leenarts: small heads up, please. There's not a lot in there. But there's a little bit of profanity. So if you're listening to this episode with smoke, its present. Please be aware. Tim Isenman: I'm so sorry. Jeroen Leenarts: Hi, and welcome to another special episode on my podcast. I'm sitting here with Tim Eisenman. I hope I pronounced that correctly. Tim, Tim Isenman: you nailed it. Yeah. Cool. Jeroen Leenarts: And what a lot of people know you about is the pocket rockets iOS app. But there's a lot more to you actually, then most people know, for instance, you live in Japan. That's true. You recently started working at a startup and you're in a really small team. So that's going to be an interesting topic to dive into as well. Right, Tim? How are you doing today? Tim Isenman: Good. I'm doing a generally pretty well. So this is like the today's the last day of a two week quarantine that I have in Japan. Because I just got back from a trip to the US. So I've been kind of in a prison of my own making for the last two weeks, and I can't wait to get out. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, I can't imagine because we also have these, these grander lockdown things going on as well. And I reckon if you have to travel them, there's also these these two weeks of self quarantine you have to do when you come in. Tim Isenman: Yeah. So small price to pay, though. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, I can agree to that. Because I'm living in Japan as a as a non national house that actually, Tim Isenman: uh, it depends on like, when, when you ask, so generally, I'd say that it's, it's totally fine. It's great. But then, you know, if you ask me, right after I got back from visiting the bank, or visiting like, like the immigration office, or doing any governmental thing, I will just, you know, be complaining the whole time about it. Because it's, it's incredibly bureaucratic here. And the banking system is like archaic. It's all it's mostly analog. Like, there's very few parts of the banking system here that are digital. And definitely not like, done on your phone. You know, like my, if I want to check my balance is done by a paper book and shoving that into an ATM than having it literally printed from a laser onto paper that's passed back to me. Jeroen Leenarts: What was actually the reason that you moved to Japan? Tim Isenman: Um, well, it was mostly because at one point, like, so I'm from America, and I'm from Los Angeles, if my accent doesn't give that away already. I had Lakeside live there, you know, my whole life. And I had moved up to the Bay Area when I was like, 26 or something. No, sorry, Tony, I think 24 To try to just like do some stuff in, in the tech industry, because I had worked in video games and in Hollywood, down in Los Angeles. And after like four years of working in video games, I kind of had, like, kind of like, deep tech envy of Silicon Valley. Like, I figured that working in video games, I'd never be able to even get close to stuff like self driving cars or machine learning, or, you know, general, like cutting edge technology applications. But I figured if I moved up to the bay, I'd have a chance to at least like be around it. And then potentially, you know, work on some of it. So I moved up there and being there was just miserable. Like, I hated the area. I didn't like the the community, you know, I thought people were going to like, frankly, be kind of like a lot smarter. Or at least like more interesting, but because you know, everyone out there works in tech. everyone kind of has the same conversations. So anyone I'd meet, it's like, Hey, what's up? What do you do? Oh, and then everyone's like, well, I work in tech. What do you do? Well, I also work in tech. So at some point, I'm just like, I don't know what the fuck I'm doing out here. So I don't feel like I'm achieving anything that I like. Or that I want to do. I don't like I was a product manager back then. So I was not even close to being an engineer. Ironically, I was like, helping engineers figure out what to do. But not knowing shit about it myself. And so when I had when I was doing that job, you know, I would also have I had envy of what they were doing too, because, you know, I'd spend all my time thinking of like a strategy for a product and you know, really nailing down what problem we're solving. But then all the really interesting work was done by my designers and my engineers. And then I just felt like a useless guy that was making like Word documents, you know? So I didn't like where I was, I didn't like what I was doing. And, you know, I just figured, like, like, life wasn't really worth living if I was kind of in that in that state. So I figured, you know, like, let's, let's pretend that like, life is ending much sooner than maybe it actually is. If I were to die, suddenly, were like, what would I want to be doing in where would I want to be doing it. And so I figured, like, I, I really loved experimenting with software. So I think I wanted to see if that could kind of resolve itself into like, a deeper passion. So I, I took it up as sort of like a, a mission of mine to either become a software engineer or just failed trying. So I took like, a couple months off of work and just taught myself iOS development, since I'd been such a big Apple fan. And all the while, I would begin to kind of I started to travel around a little bit, one to Japan, and then one to China. And I've been to both these places before. So I just wanted to go back and visit some friends and do some research around like what other industries I might want to, to work in, outside of just like the normal consumer tech community that, you know, the Bay Area is popular for. So I went to both places. And, you know, I was trying to research like robotics in Japan. But when I was here, I did exactly none of that. And I just, I just went around the city and like, discovered great cafes and met a bunch of interesting people. And a, you know, like, like, truly incredible food. And so I extended my trip there from being just like a week, to being in total, like a month, sort of simulating what like a normal life would be, if I were just there, not exactly as a tourist, but as like a you know, like a simple resident. And that month of not really doing shit other than living, like a simple life was one of the best I've ever had. So I eventually had to go back to the states to like, like to have a dentist appointment. But when I came back, I'm not kidding. When, when I came back. I I was like, oh my god, like I have to go back there. Like now that I'm back in the US, I'm miserable again. So the two things that I resolved to do were one to wake up every day in Japan, and then to to spend every day building something. So it was really just like a, a means of living a life that you know, if I were to die at any moment, I'd be doing the things that I would I would want to be doing. And so you know, now I generally have like, a life that I'm I'm pretty proud of where you know, every day I'm like, I'm doing stuff that I'm I'm really interested in stuff that's, you know, pretty hard, but like fascinating at the same time. And it feels like I'm growing a lot be both because of the work but then also because of the environment. Jeroen Leenarts: So but you mentioned that there's two things living in Japan and building and creating stuff every day. Yeah. Is that also the reason that you work where you currently work? Or was that the reason that you started Pocket Rocket? Tim Isenman: No. I mean, Japan definitely helps. I think I think Japan like one of the reasons I wanted to live here as opposed to like, let's say South Korea, where I also really love is because there's like, I think almost everything made made in Japan is made extremely well. There's like a culture of, of like craft mastery here. So whether you're like a chef or like a woodworker, or you know, in many types of artists, people are obsessed about the thing that they do, like they they build their identity around being the master of usually like one thing. And I figured if I'm around a culture or if I'm within a culture that has like that sort of value system, then I'm going to be able to learn just by like observation. In generally I think that I have, you know, I've done like, you know, I've taken like different art classes out here to try to understand a little bit of the philosophy around Japanese art and design. And those have definitely helped with my own sense of craftsmanship too. So the environment like being here definitely does contribute to that. But then pocket rocket that was honestly mostly a means of me. Like staying alive and affording rent. So the way that I actually, like immigrated to Japan was by starting a company here. So since I'm a college dropout, and Japan doesn't really value immigrants who don't have a college degree, but you can get around that. So that means that I can be hired by a traditional company and get a normal like, engineering visa by let's say, Google Japan. It's literally like, not possible for them to hire me. So the one thing that I can do to get around that is to start my own company, and then have my company sponsor my visa. So that's what I did. But you know, when you're the one starting your company, there's nobody paying you to do your to do that job. So the the only thing that I could think of immediately, as both someone who was coming out here still learning software development, like when I when I moved out here, you know, I was maybe seven months, or eight months into my iOS career. So you know, at that point, like, you barely know shit, like, I can maybe put together like a table view, manipulate, like, the basic like UI kit components. But, you know, Can I do something more complex, and can I like, get like, like a mid level job somewhere? Probably not. I mean, not I was like, at least not where I was at the time. So I figured the only way that I could even get to that point where someone might even be confident hiring me as a contractor, I had to make something of my own to demonstrate, you know, what I what I thought that I could do. And so, you know, I had this, like, sample project from when I was learning iOS, that was a list of all the upcoming launches from SpaceX. Because I, I am still I wasn't, I am still in probably will, will always be obsessed with spaceflight. And so when SpaceX began, you know, broadcasting their launches, and when the launch has been picking up, I've watched them, you know, religiously, from, from my apartment in, in the Bay Area. And I'd always forget when they were happening, and you know, the, like, launches are always subject to weather. So like a single change, and like the upper atmosphere of either a launch site, or now for SpaceX, a landing site, can totally wipe out a launch, you know, at a moment's notice, even like one minute before. Before the launch, they can just scrub it. So I often go into the live stream, have a lunch, and nothing would be there, because they had scrubbed it. And there wasn't any anything telling me that. So I figured, you know, if I'm having this problem, there's probably at least a couple other people that are too. So if I built something, maybe I would, you know, make it well enough to, like, let's say sell for like $1, or something on the App Store. And, you know, there's always that kind of like that that thing that people say like if you want to get a career as a developer, like one of the best things you can do is make make your own app. I was sort of following that principle too. But also, you know, just trying to pay like my next month's rent. So I told a friend of mine about it. And then so he happens to be like a world class designer. And he's like, whoa, well, I kind of I liked the idea. And I really liked the name. And I just I really want to have like the name Pocket Rocket in my portfolio. So if you want, I'll design it for you, and then we can split it 5050. And so then I dedicated the next couple months to building that with him. And then we found our 3d modeler to design the rockets for our app. And you know, we launched it you know, honestly, it might be a year ago exactly today. Jeroen Leenarts: Yes. Okay. You mentioned already a couple of interesting things because you created pocket rocket to enable yourself to actually move to Japan. But also to stay here actually, yeah, to actually have like a meaningful income or you need a decree or meeting You for income to actually get a visa. But you're also a college dropout. So how long ago did you decide that? Regular education was not your thing? Because when When did you drop out? Tim Isenman: So I dropped out after my first year of college. Jeroen Leenarts: How many years ago? Is that now? Tim Isenman: 12 2009. Jeroen Leenarts: And what did you do after dropping out in the between time from dropping out till now? Because, as you already mentioned, you you're not a software developer, it seems for that long, though. Yeah. So what did you do before? Yeah, so Tim Isenman: at the time, you know, I my, like, passion in my, my, like, reason to live was to write and to i to be a movie director. So I think maybe like, it's like a symptom of growing up in Los Angeles, that like, you know, we all want to work in Hollywood at some point. But like, genuinely my heroes growing up were Steven Spielberg and George Lucas. And like Scorsese, and Francis Ford Coppola. So, you know, my, I went to school to study writing. And it was, it was when I was doing that, that I realized that higher education for I think a lot of disciplines is just like a total waste of time. And so this is mostly like in the American education system, I can't speak to like, let's say Europe, where I think tuition for most people is, is free. I mean, maybe misconception, I'm not sure. But at least in the US, when I was getting a, an English degree, which has next to zero value, like on like, according to the market, there's like negative, perhaps negative value to having an English degree. But I was paying 70,000 US dollars a year, for a kind of, like mid tier public school. So you know, let's say I did that for four years, I'm just like, reading books, writing about them, and then writing stuff of my own, and paying $70,000 per year for it. So at the end of that, you know, I'd be like 28,000, or $280,000 in debt, like, almost a third of a million dollars in debt, for reading books and writing about them for four years, like, does that not sound insane? So I, I figure, like, if I want it to be a writer, I don't need a college degree, I can just go to a library, you know, or I can go to a bookstore, and pay like several 1000s of a percent for the same education if I just do it myself. Because really like, what what writing is, is the art of is the the actual process of writing, and then evaluating what you wrote, sharing with people getting feedback, and then figuring out, you know, where it sucked, and where it could have been better, and then doing it again. But hopefully, you know, better the next time. So if you just do that on your own, you're self motivated enough, you don't need to be a third of a million dollars in debt for no reason. So Jeroen Leenarts: I can relate to that, actually. Because indeed, oh really educate education in the in the US is comparatively, very expensive. If you compare it to Europe, still in Europe, there is a cost involved. But it's like for what you pay for one year you can in some countries, you can just do the entire education. So that's like four year program that you can raise even though that sounds great. So and then of course, you still have to cost of living and stuff like that. But the tuition and all the direct costs that that's that that's an all taken care of. But with the writing, what is interesting is that you say okay, as long as you can get proper feedback, you are able to develop yourself and grow as a writer. Yeah, but are those skills that you think are transferable to other disciplines? Like for instance, software development? Tim Isenman: Yeah, without a doubt, I mean, I think I think most skills are, are transferable. If you think about them from I think the right perspective, you know, so like, with writing, you know, there's like, you're, you're, you're creating kind of like a inexperience for somebody. So you have to think about like the rhythms of the thing that you're writing and how someone sort of moves through those rhythms. And it's the same with like, you know, an app or like, a piece of software or like some tool People are experiencing that thing that you've made. And if you don't structure it properly, then either they won't understand the value of it, or they won't understand how to use it. Or it'll just be boring. You know, like, if you're making a game, and you don't structure the game design properly, people are going to click around and wonder what they're doing. And then they're never going to play again. Or if you you know, give them an app about rockets, and you don't show them where the rockets are, or you don't like put the right information somewhere that lets them know, you know, what they're looking to know. And then nobody's gonna care, and they're gonna put the thing down and never pick it up. Again, the same with a book, you're never gonna sell another copy, as long as your names on it. Jeroen Leenarts: So yeah, you're basically saying that storytelling is not only important if you're a writer, but it's also important if you're creating software, you're saying? Tim Isenman: I think it can be Yeah, I genuinely think that like, like, you don't need to think about, you know, writing software as having like, an act structure, you know, like a story might, but I think you do need to think about it as, as an experience that someone is moving through, and what points of that experience you need to or want to, or should communicate something to them that is either helpful, or like that. They that satisfies, like, whatever they're looking for in that moment. Or that, like surprises them, and it just like, kind of shocks them in the, like, the unexpected version of something nice, you know, that they're that they're finding. So a lot of the a lot of principles can be applied to it for sure. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay, cool. So yeah, you've been like, earning your living for, like, 12 years now and only recently switched into software development, or, Tim Isenman: yeah, but so after, after I dropped out of college, I actually worked in Hollywood for like, two years. Two years. Okay. Yeah. So I dropped, I dropped out in in 2009. And then I worked. So I worked on an independent movie with a guy named Kevin Smith. He's like the director of movies like clerk and Chasing Amy and dogma. So if you've ever heard of like, the Jay and Silent Bob duo, he's actually the Silent Bob guy. And so I worked. I worked with him for about a year. And then I also worked on the very early beginnings of a TV show for Fox called cosmos. Yeah, that, you know, that guy Neil deGrasse Tyson hosted. And so that thing for me, it was like this crazy dream come true. Because I had grown up watching the original Cosmos with Carl Sagan as the host, from the 80s. And one of the producers from the first movie that I worked on, like, hit me up one day, like, immediately when I moved, like the first week that I moved back to LA from from college. And he's like, Hey, what are you up to these days? And I'm like, exactly, nothing. I just dropped out of college to do this stuff. And he's like, Well, I've got a project that's right up your alley. It's some like space documentary stuff. And that's all that he told me. Jeroen Leenarts: It's almost serendipity. Right? Tim Isenman: It was Yeah. It was, like freaky, you know, like just how much it was. But he so he tells me, I have like a space documentary that I'm working on. So I think you'd like it. So at some point, I guess in the production of the movie, I told him that I was really into space, because I had also like, tried to double major in that when I was when I was in college because I wanted to write about sci fi. So I figured if I wanted to write good sci fi, I should at least know what I'm talking about. For like, like space travel, and in like Astro astrophysics and stuff like that. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, but the true to life. Space scenes are not very exciting, right? Tim Isenman: No, but people really did like the Martian. And I did have a lot of scientific value in it. But But regardless, so that that bug, like got into his year. So he invites me onto that project. And then like two or three months into working on it, he's like, hey, I can actually tell you the name now of the show. And I'm like, Okay, hit me just blah, blah, blah, for Discovery Channel, right? And he's like, No, this is the reboot of cosmos. And I've lost it. Because every night when I was a kid, you know, I would just watch the reruns of that over and over and over. Jeroen Leenarts: So yeah, that's actually something interesting that you mentioned there as a kid you want to get into movies, screenwriting and related to topics, but at what point Did technology became a thing? Of course you have to spaceflight and rockets? Yeah, whole whole NASA history of course. But when did computers became a thing for you? Tim Isenman: I mean, technically like, they always had been, because I was a big like PC Gamer when I was a kid. So you know, I, I had this like crappy old Dell computer and I would play like really simple stuff on there, but then somehow buy like, you know, some some gifts of the universe. I think it was like an older Korean guy opened a PC Cafe, in my like, really humble small town, in like a suburb of Los Angeles. Like, not a place where a PC Cafe ever like, should have been. But this is like way back in. I think the early 2000s Like before gaming PCs, like started to look sexy or anything this this guy opens up this this place in just like a strip mall, like an outdoor mall. And lines like this just rectangular room with these custom built computers. And, you know, loads them up. Kind of like in so this this all the all this stuff like comes from like a Korean business model of filling a room with with PCs, pre loading them with pre loading them with, like the best PC games on the market at the time. So that was like, what of Warcraft had had just come out. Counter Strike at the time was that like the 1.6 version, like Counter Strike Source didn't even exist yet. So like half life two was still kind of a thing that people were playing. And Warcraft, three Frozen Throne was was like a big hit. In, in, in those those cafes too, in Starcraft two. So I would spend almost every single weekend in that, in that that PC Cafe, it was called the PC lab so had an even cooler name to you know. And so I was obsessed with, with computers and with computer games, up until like, I was a, I don't know, like a mid teenager and then I stopped to pursue a professional golf career, which was a waste of time. But that taught me a lot to Jeroen Leenarts: at least try it right. Tim Isenman: Yeah, I mean, like, I played in a few pro tournaments. And then I realized that I hated the golf community. Because it's just like a like a bunch of like racist and misogynist dudes, who are basically like playing in like a fraternity game with each other. But I, so I, I left golf and then went into into film. And so computers came in, like back then, like, when I was like, maybe 11 or something. And, you know, they kind of had like, a fascination to me, because of like space and, like the space stuff that I was interested in. But I never, I was always kind of terrified of like, approaching them from like a I want to program something perspective. Because I wasn't good at thinking about logic. And I had taken like a, a programming course in in college. Well, it was actually a programming lesson as part of a a space exploration class that was mostly about like lunar geology, actually. So we were building like a simulated lunar rover. And so we had to build like a Lego rover and program it with Matlab to navigate, you know, what would have been like lunar terrain. And just looking at MATLAB and looking at logic, just scared the shit out of me. Because I didn't think in those terms back then, you know, I come from like writing which I think to have like good ideas, you need to think more abstract about things but then to write them well, you I think you do need to think very, in a very structured way. I didn't understand that back then. So my writing sucked. But then event you know, eventually I I just decided that I wasn't going to let that fear sort of, you know, overcome me in prevent me from doing what I think I really wanted to do. Which was working in logical systems. Because in like high school and stuff, you know, during like physics classes, we would we would, you know, mess around with So with like engineering stuff, and that it was always the most interesting thing to me, but I always struggled with it, because I never took the time to, you know, just learn the fundamentals of logic. That let me think in logical terms. But then I studied Python for a little bit, and then that that really, like, you know, cracked that crack that nut. And then I taught myself math from the ground up, I think when I was like, 2026. So just so that I wouldn't like, I wouldn't feel like I was missing anything. And then went deep into iOS after that, and all of that kind of like chain was was really helpful. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay, I'm still missing two things, or at least two topics that I want to ask you about. So what what what created the interest in you, for Asian and then specifically Korean and Japanese culture? Tim Isenman: Oh, well, I guess for like, you know, like, when I was a kid, I was, you know, playing Nintendo games a lot too. And growing up in Los Angeles, you're, you're kind of flanked by both Japanese culture and Korean culture. More so Korea now, but you know, we being like a coastal city, you know, we had like, pretty decent sushi, and, like ramen restaurants. And, you know, I also grew up in the Pokemon era. So I was like, you know, playing like Mario games and Donkey Kong. And then when I wasn't doing that, I was watching Pokemon cartoons on TV. And then at night, I was eating ramen. So, you know, eventually, I saw this show. Like, you know, this is like, the time when I was sure I wanted to be a writer. Or, like, at least like a filmmaker, I saw this show called Cowboy Bebop. And it's, like a really, like, excellent anime series, like a one season series that has, I think, just like some of the most remarkable storytelling and art style and music, even still, that I've I've ever seen. And so I figured, like, the people that made this really know what they're doing. Like, you don't make this unless you're like, you, there's like a culture around this, that enables this, like depth of creativity. And like, you know, uniqueness of a thing. So that show kind of convinced me that I needed to learn more about the Japanese culture. And so, Japan, the Japan stuff comes from that. And then with Korea, you know, playing golf, most of my peers were actually Korean kids. So, you know, their parents would, you know, be nice enough to like, bring us lunch, or like early dinners while we were practicing. And of course, it was, it was Korean food, like homemade Korean food and like, the introduction to stuff like, chop chain, and like Spam musubi. And then soon the blue, which is this like hot, like, chili, chili based tofu soup, just like, I like lost my mind when I ate that stuff. It was so good. You know, coming from like a very, like vanilla white culture where some of the more exotic food that I ate for dinner was literally like, gravy and meat on toast. like Korean food with all these spices, and in meats, just like drove me up the wall with happiness. And then, you know, I then went on to work at this place called Riot Games, and we made a game called League of Legends. And that game in Korea was like, the NBA. In America, like it's like that level of insane popularity and hype. Where, you know, like, our characters were like, plastered all over the trains, and they were on like Coke cans and stuff. So that the Korean community like enabled like the next chapter of my of my life, by it's like love of League of Legends, which really got me into the, like, the love of software development. Jeroen Leenarts: Cool. Yeah. Also, you mentioned Riot Games there. That's a topic we didn't address yet. That's why he did say that you did work at a games company. But why in the end, did you end up as an iOS developer? So why did you choose to focus your career on writing software for that platform? Tim Isenman: Um, so I don't know when I think I think at first start my My love of like Apple stuff started when the iPod came out, like my, my introduction to Apple was through like the second generation iPod. And when I got that I still had that, like this old Dell that I put like a gaming card, or like a graphics card into for playing Counter Strike. And they, you know, they had iTunes for windows back then. And so I had that, and I was managing my music through that. And for whatever reason I like got into my head that like, if I have an iPad, I should have a Mac, you know, I was just like, following their marketing like to the tee. So I, I convinced my family that I needed this thing, and it aligned like, right, when I lined up like for right before I was going to college. So I had I had an iPod needed it for like going to going to school and doing well there. So I bought that thing, and then I just kind of assumed the life of like, like a Mac head, you know, where if there was like a thing that had like a computer chip in it, like it better be an Apple product, or else get the hell away from me. Yeah, yeah. So after, you know, working at, at Riot and sort of developing, I think like a deeper taste for, for software and for operating systems. I, I just I felt like I knew the iOS ecosystem extremely well. And when I was thinking of like, how to get into programming, you know, my first steps into it were in like, Java, and then I tried making a website with, you know, HTML and CSS, and I felt like that sucked. And then I learned Python. And, you know, after I learned, like, the syntax, and everything of Python, and you know, did some like algorithmic stuff, I still didn't know how to make a thing, like, I didn't know how to make something that someone could use, which is what I wanted, because, you know, coming from like a product background, which is what I did at Riot I, I want to do is make a thing that someone can use. So I figure the fundamentals of iOS development, being making an app, that would be the place where one it would give me what I wanted, which was, you know, the output of something that I could use, or that somebody else could use, but to it would be a familiar enough, like body of toolkits. Because I had been using their products for the last like, you know, 10 years. So, or however long, you know, I'd had like that, that obsession with them. So it was a good like, kind of analogy of, of like, software to final product. And giving me sort of like the deliverable that I wanted to. And then I figured, you know, once I, if I use that as sort of like the foundation for learning software, then I'd be able to take that understanding and learn whatever else I wanted to do next, like what other whatever, whatever other type of software or potentially, you know, other forms of engineering. Jeroen Leenarts: So looking at the the journey into iOS development, you took a little bit of a side road with Python, just to come to the realization that software development is something that you could do actually, yeah. How tough was it to actually get into the field to actually be able to declare yourself a software developer who is a marketable skill? Sorry, who's this person with a marketable skill? Tim Isenman: Uh, well, I mean, I think like, how hard was it? I don't know. I mean, the stuff that I was doing at the same time, as learning iOS stuff was way harder. So I kind of I made it I made it far harder for myself. And I think you know, anyone should where I was immigrating to another country whose language I didn't speak, and starting a business, doing a thing that I didn't fully know how to do. So I think out of those like four things of like moving learning a new language, starting a business and learning programming, I think programming was actually the easiest one. Because I mean, like, the community is so great. There's so many resources out there for anybody to just Pick up and start doing something immediately. Jeroen Leenarts: But which research? Which resource was the biggest help to you? Tim Isenman: Man? Well, I'll tell you which one wasn't. And that was Udacity. So that was what I first went to. And it is like a massive expense for learning programming, but it's like, man, it is like, let's say, 1/10 of the value of a couple pages of Paul Hudson's hacking with Swift stuff, you know, like, he has maybe six to 10 videos that cover just about everything that I learned a chord across, like the $2,000 budget that I had with Udacity I like I wish I had just found hacking with Swift at the beginning, because I would have got I would have become like, I think, a much better engineer much faster. So I think what once I found him thanks to like, some friends at a, a small company that I was working with. They introduced me to him, then like, I he was really like the gateway into the rest of the community. So then I found like Johnson Dell. And I found like, I like Dave de vivre. And I'm forgetting other people. But you know, I found I found everyone else's stuff. Oh, like Donnie walls and swiftly and just, you know, all like, the the names that I think you and I know. Yeah. So if I'm helping people learn it now. I just direct them immediately to the 100 days of Swift. And then I say, learn this, the moment that you get stuck, asked me the question about what you're stuck on, I'll help unblock you. And then this will like, you know, fast track you into being like a very competent iOS developer. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, that's, that's mostly what people need, right? Just some structure and a goal to focus on. Because, indeed, with with a large pool of videos and resources, like Udacity, there's, there's so much to choose from, you don't know what's right, you know, don't know what's correct. There's no, there's no beginning and end actually, to what you can learn there. And that's right. Also immediately the problem I think, yeah, just because we coming up on to our, sorry, no, it's fine. Just just for just for our listeners, I just want to like, provide them with a recap. That that's like chronologically, so let's start at when you were 11 you were going to this sort of like arcades cyber cafe. Right. Play room. Really? Yeah. dancy cafe, the PC Cafe. So So you were 11? And can you like chronologically chronologically? Tell what happened. Yeah. Tim Isenman: So yeah, like early, preteens playing PC games, non stop watching movies, non stop, and skateboarding. And then that gives, like, true. Well, I had stopped collecting Pokemon cards, I think like around 10 Because then that's when Harry Potter came out. And and that's, that's where my obsession shifted. But then like mid to late teens, I was playing golf. And I stopped when I began playing kind of like low level professional tournaments. And then that's when I went to. I was in college at the same time studying writing and in space exploration dropped out when I was 19, to then work on a movie called Redstate with Kevin Smith, and then went, moved back to LA to work in film full time, and then joined the pre production crew of the show cosmos. And then I think I worked on that for maybe like a year or something. And then a temp agency sent me to do to clean the kitchens at Riot Games. And I liked working at Riot so much and Riot likes having me around so much. They offered me a full time job cleaning the kitchens and like building desks and stuff like that doing like a lot of like menial stuff around the office when I was 21 and then I worked there for four years and you know, I kind of graduated from cleaning kitchens and stocking coffee to being a product manager on the game and working on a bunch of different and types of features and technologies. And then eventually riot was bought out by their kind of parent, their majority shareholder Tencent in China. So from that, like the little bit of stock that I got from joining us, like, sort of like a, almost like a janitor, I was able to pay off all my student loans, which then let me move to the Bay Area to try to work in, you know, like newer types of like emerging technology. That's when I got really disappointed with like how life sort of shaped up. So then I stopped doing product management taught myself iOS development, moved to Japan, started my company here, made Pocket Rocket ships Pocket Rocket a year ago, and began doing consulting around then it has been continued working on Pocket Rocket for the last exactly one year now. And then, as of like, like three weeks ago, joined this, this new startup based based in California, where we're trying to make a a social app that is that will mostly meet the needs of like, younger, younger women of the Gen Z. Demographic, where, you know, nothing feels like it's really like uniquely tailored to them and sort of like their comfort and safety and preferences. So we're working on something around there. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, that's also an interesting place that you're working at, because you're only part of a team of three people, right? The the backend engineer and yourself if I'm yet Yeah, exactly. How did you end up working with such a small team with such a big plan actually, Tim Isenman: um, so any, I've never got to this day, I've never gotten a job with a resume. I feel like anytime, like I applied to something, I know that I'm not going to get it because the arc of my life precludes all normal jobs coming from any any sort of normal track. So this, this came from a series of like, previous, previous jobs and relationships, as has everything else. So this, this job was introduced to me by someone who was like an early guide of mine through the iOS learning process, who then like helped me get my first my first job as an engineer on a really small product that never went anywhere. And so when, when that company, kind of like went into the, into the gutter, he and I, you know, remained close friends. And he, through clubhouse, met the, the founder of this new company, and introduced me to her and told me about, you know, her vision, and she and I talked, and we just got along super well, you know, she's a former Product Manager from Twitter. And Amazon, in me being a former Product Manager from from Riot, you know, we really speak like in very real terms speak the same language as product managers. But the difference, you know, now is that, like, I get to take the things that we say, as product managers in the way that we think and then apply it to whatever we're building. So we have kind of like a very high bandwidth, communication style. And it just, it feels really natural and really great. And then I, I knew that, you know, we needed a back end engineer to, you know, rebuild, or build this, this app out entirely. So I brought, I introduced her to a friend of mine who had also worked with the person who introduced me to her. And so now, that that backend person, myself and our founder, all work together and, you know, we get along super well. And, you know, it's really her vision and we're following her lead and she's doing like a fantastic job. You know, figuring, like talking with, like, doing like user interviews and figuring out like the nuances of, of how, like this demographic is like extremely underrepresented and underserved. Like just like the early insights of like, you know, what she's been digging up have been like incredibly eye opening, being like a by an older guy the stuff that like young women have to deal with on the internet. You know you and I should should never be envious of them it's it's pretty shitty. Jeroen Leenarts: Can I've heard stories and it's it's insane some things that you actually hear. Tim Isenman: Yeah, are creeps on the internet turns out? Yeah, that's news. Yeah. Jeroen Leenarts: But yeah, just just then getting some details on what actually happens is it's i That's fucked up. But in the end I'd say that, Tim, we most of all know you from Pocket Rocket but there's actually so much more to your story and your life thus far. And I think it's a very interesting story that you have just being enabled by by Riot Games to make a big change in your life. Seriously, those guys saved my life. So, Eva. Yeah, despite everything that's been said in the press about Riot Games, there's in this specific instance, they have done an amazing job. Tim Isenman: Yeah, yeah, they definitely they've definitely stumbled, but they've, they've been able to, I think, make a lot of good changes. It's a very different culture from, from what I hear. Jeroen Leenarts: So And with that, I wanted to wrap things up. And if people want to reach you, what's the best way to actually have them do that? Tim Isenman: I just generally say on Twitter, you know, it's just my name, luckily. So it's pretty easy to find me and then I have this like, terrible picture of me just like scowling like a like a huge asshole. And so that's just at Tim Eisenman. And so you know, Tim, plus, i s e n mn. Jeroen Leenarts: Tim, thank you very much. I look forward to the things that you're working on right now. What it will do and how they will actually land once it's been launched. Tim Isenman: Yeah, me too, man. Jeroen Leenarts: And thank you for your flexibility and I hope construction work at my end of the conversation wasn't too bad. Tim Isenman: Dude, I heard nothing. So those those guys have a deft touch, I think with their job. Jeroen Leenarts: Have a good dynamic microphone with a polar pattern also really helps. Yeah. Tim Isenman: I'm sure yeah. And Jeroen Leenarts: yeah, with that. Thank you very much, Tim, and I hope to talk to you soon again. Tim Isenman: Yeah, I'm sure we'll chat online plenty