Stewart Lynch, an iOS development Youtuber who got started with Fortran

Jeroen Leenarts: So hi everybody, I'm sitting here on another special episode with Stuart Lynch. And we're just gonna dig into his backstory a little bit. And you might know him off his YouTube channel. And he hasn't been in iOS development as long as if. But he has been in software development a lot longer than I have been. So what I've read from his backstory is that he got started in Fortran, and things went on from there. And in 2014, he got into iOS development. And he actually started his YouTube channel about one or two years ago, which is, which is specifically on iOS development. So Stuart, Hi, how are you doing today? Stewart Lynch: I'm great. Thanks for having me. Jeroen Leenarts: So what from what happened? Stewart Lynch: Well, as you said, I've been in this a lot fun given you. And that was the language Fortran and COBOL. And this was back in 1969, when I graduated from high school and went to university and didn't really know what I wanted to do. So I joined the faculty of science, basically, mathematics. And so there was no computer science. In those days, any computer science type courses were offered through the mathematics department. And that was a bit of a of an interest that I had. So I decided to take every course that I could, in computer science, and it wasn't actually until after or quite a few years, in that I had gone down another path that they actually put in the computer science department. But by that time, I had decided that I was going to become a teacher, so focused on on that that aspect of my career. Jeroen Leenarts: So is it safe to say that your first real interaction with computers wasn't your education? Stewart Lynch: You Yeah. Because when I was learning Fortran, and PL one, it was all on punch cards. And so the experience was you had to type up your code, submit your your batch of cards, and because I was these, these were introductory courses, you had to wait until the end of the day before they would process those those batches. And then you would get your results back the next day, find out that you had a typo in one of the cards. So he had to go through. And so it was a very slow process. So the learning, it wasn't very fast. So it wasn't really until I guess it was 1980 when I was teaching and and I computer started to get introduced into education that they dropped a few computers into our school. And I just picked one up and started to decide that I was going to play around with it to see if this was the future and started reading some some software to be able to teach graphing concepts in my math classes. Jeroen Leenarts: And that computer that you picked up for education purposes in 1980. That happened to be an apple two, correct? Stewart Lynch: That's right. Yeah. Apple two plus, I think it was Yeah. Jeroen Leenarts: Oh, plus even So yeah, that's that's like fancy material. Stewart Lynch: pretty advanced. Yeah. Jeroen Leenarts: So if you look at that, so 1969, you, you started your education, and you went into education yourself for after that. And you also mentioned that it wasn't immediately after graduating. So what what was your timeline there? Stewart Lynch: Well, I mean, I graduated from high school, and I went to university for for just a year where I took a couple of computer science courses. And then I decided to take some time off and traveled through Europe in 1971. Everybody didn't those days, you take time off. And then when I came back, I wasn't even too sure at that point, I was gonna go into education. So I actually got my degree in mathematics and went and worked for an insurance company in data processing. But it was, it wasn't really anything to do with computers, it was just managing data. And so then I ended up going back again, and getting some certification so that I can actually teach. And so it wasn't until 1975 or 76, that I started teaching. And, and that was teaching math and physical education, actually, but And still, there are no computers in schools. And it really wasn't until 1980 that the computer started to get into schools. And nobody really knew what to do with them only that this was supposedly the future. And so I jumped at the chance and that was it. My days were gone. And Jeroen Leenarts: so So you could say that from 1969 to like 1980. You worked with computers somewhat, but because of the field that you were in, like maths and data, data processing, but then oldstyle data processor, that's probably a lot of databases, I guess. Yeah. And in 1980 you got involved with an apple two plus, and that's like immediately rides headfirst into the Apple ecosystem. It seems that, that was the start of your, your journey into computers so to speak. And why an apple two wasn't the only option available or Stewart Lynch: exit, there were some Commodore pets. And a little bit later on Commodore 64. But the school district that I was in basically drank the apple Kool Aid. So we were apple, and then promptly after that went into Macintosh heavily, and provided, you know, labs of Macintosh as to every school in the in the school district. And that was actually the time that I got out of teaching because they needed somebody to be able to help teachers learn how to use a mouse, and, and, and so on. So I was taken out of the classroom, and spent two years going around schools and making sure that people could understand how to use the technology. Nobody never really knew what to do with them. But there's always a lot of word processing, things like that. But that's, that's when things really took off. And when schools got labs and started to figure out what to use the computers for. Jeroen Leenarts: But then when we're looking at 1980, and then 2014, that you really got into iOS development. Yeah, it took like a really long and winding path to end up at iOS development. Of course, the technology wasn't available back then. But so what's your what what has been your journey from getting from an apple to, like, all the way to 2014? On an iPhone? Stewart Lynch: Sure. I got heavily into technology implementation in in, in school systems. Yeah. And I grew up with the system. So I ended up becoming a getting a leadership role as the director of technology in a school district. And one day, the superintendent of schools comes to me, he says, Well, how far are we away from email. And so that is kind of an open checkbook to start to do some investigations. And I discovered a product actually, that was a quite unusual for the time it was a GUI based product. And it was by a company called first class. And they became quite popular in Scandinavian countries and, and throughout the United States. And what they had was a development environment that you can build applications on top of the product itself. So it was a group where product collaboration, and I discovered that I could write code that would run X, give me access to corporate databases, SQL databases, and be able to present information in real time two people who were logged into the system. Okay. That was, and it was a proprietary language, it was kind of like Visual Basic. But the GUI was basically a text editor. So no, no feedback, you ran the code, if it had errors, you had to basically dig down and determine what to do with it. And so I became really quite proficient at doing that, and started to sell products through the school district to other schools, in other districts across North America and in Europe. And that really sort of grew. And then I went to another school district and took that system with me and really built it and became a bit of an evangelist so that in 2002 1007, I decided to take an early retirement from the education system, and went and worked for that software company. And that's where I started to get more involved with doing customer value added product development. And by that time, they had a web based tool. So I was developing tools in JavaScript and, and things that people could could use to enhance that product. So I was with them from 2007 to 2014. And they downsized and I lost my job. And just shortly after that is when Swift was introduced in WWDC. So I had always had an interest in in Apple products. And every, you know, I had that at that point. I had a number of IMAX and I had a number of PCs as well because as developing on PCs, but the Apple was where I started and where I decided I was going to end and that's where I got really into the iOS development, Jeroen Leenarts: because that's interesting, actually, because 2000 2014 is When Swift was introduced, at least when it was General available. And I've read on the interview did Whitfield Nemecek that Objective C in some way it didn't click with you? Stewart Lynch: Yeah, I guess I had tried a few other times. It was just the syntax that that wasn't familiar to me and I suppose if I had stuck with it long enough, I probably could have but it just it was just too obscure years having worked for this company open text they had it was all JavaScript based. And, you know, Swift is there's an awful lot of similarities there in terms of the the syntax and the structure. So when Swift was introduced that very one Dotto I mean, I built an app and had it on the app store within a short period of time, and just started going from there. And every year, I'd build a few more apps and throw them up on the App Store. And each one had a different focus. And that's just how I started to just keep on going. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay. Well, before we continue for onward from 2014, to the present, I would just want to check some boxes for people who are listening. Can you explain in a few words, what for Tron is? Stewart Lynch: Wow. Going back, that's going back really far. You know, it's just like any other programming language, you know, it's, I'm not sure how it would under how I explain what it is. Jeroen Leenarts: What I remember from my day back at school was that Fortran was somewhat of a language tailor to financial transactions, that it was quite suitable for those kinds of things. And, and PL one, I think that's a precursor of C, right? Could be, yeah, it's, it's because it's very interesting, because 1969, that's 10 years before I was born, actually. But that's, that's really cool. Because it's basically like, talking to you is like talking to a time capsule in this in the positive sense. And so I really always am very interested in how these precursor languages how they actually ended up in the language that you use nowadays. So because C is still used a lot, but Swift has a lot of roots in C type languages, but also an Objective C, and it all has lineages, and it all attaches to each other. Another topic I just wanted to quickly touch upon is what does the director of technology do within a school district? Stewart Lynch: Yeah, well, I was responsible for the implementation of technology, not only on the the educational side of things as it would apply to student learning, but also on the corporate side. So I was responsible for the procurement and purchasing of, of the hardware, the networking, the whole infrastructure. I mean, I had a department of people that worked for me. And so I didn't do the work. But I was the one that was responsible for making sure that everything fit together so that anything that we did fit in the big, big plan of things for the district. So there weren't any silos of people doing their own thing. So there's sort of economies in knowing that. Jeroen Leenarts: And you also mentioned an early retirement from the education system, but that was, was it like really retirements, the typical type of retirement or was it more like, Okay, I've worked in education for a number of years. And now I just want to refocus myself on other areas. Stewart Lynch: Yeah. People say that I retired, I see that I required that I think that's probably more retirement because I was able to collect the pension, although it was reduced. Yeah. And, and that's what really makes me probably quite different from from anybody else that you're talking to, or will talk to, in that, you know, I don't have a career in iOS development, it's it basically is a hobby of mine, although I'm deeply ingrained in it, but I'm not in it for any sort of financial reasons. It doesn't really I do it, because I love it. Jeroen Leenarts: Now, you could say that within the education system, you were able to reach financial security for the remainder of your life. And then that allowed you to like, Do things you enjoy and stuff that you really have a passion for. Stewart Lynch: And by taking early retirement, I had a reduced pension. So by joining this open text, the technology company, there the salary I received there was commensurate with what I was getting when I was in education. So being able to have that allow me to add some additional savings so that when that job finally ended Yeah, I mean, I don't want to say them rich, but I don't really have to worry about you know, making apps and making sure that they that make any money Jeroen Leenarts: that that's also something called like financially secure, which is a very, it's a very nice place to be so that of course you have to think about finances you because you're not filthy rich, but you know that if you do things correctly, then there's not much you need to worry about financially anymore. So if you look At 2014, you jumped into iOS development, sprint one was released, you released your first app on the App Store immediately. Can you tell a little bit about the app? Because I think it was a game called nem. Correct? Stewart Lynch: That's correct. Yeah. It was a, it was something that, in fact, that was my son was was coaching, or was was playing baseball at the time. And his coach was one of my former students. And he had mentioned to me at the time, which was just around that time, 2014 How, when he was in my math class, he was always intrigued by the game that I used to play with them. So I bring out 15 coins and set them up in and asked students to try and beat me at this game, because it's it's a matter of taking a number of coins, or stones or whatever from a row, and the person who takes the last one wins the game or the other way round. And so it's just mathematics. And it's based on on a binary number system. And I decided that okay, well, that was an interesting game. And I would like to be able to build an app around that, because I think that I could, and it wasn't super difficult was just the mathematics and behind the presentation in the UI. So I built that and put that on the App Store and even later built the same app for Android as well. So that was my first Android app, my only Android app. But yeah, and it was it was kind of fun to put together. Jeroen Leenarts: But would you say that, even nowadays, that maths is still something that is very important to your thinking and your logical structure when you're reasoning about things, or? Stewart Lynch: Yeah, I Yeah, and I think that that kind of almost comes out in my videos is that they're very structured. I do a lot of planning for my videos, making sure that they're all logical. And, you know, my degree in mathematics is in logic. Yeah. And so everything that I do has to have a beginning, middle, and an end. And I always know where I'm headed. Yeah, and, and I think that serves one well in computer programming too. And, and I deal with a number of people that through my videos, I've managed to, to start mentoring a number of people and and that's the, the thing that I always have to get across to them is that you, you really bet or know where you're going. Because if you just start coding without really knowing what the end is, you're going to be plugging holes all the time. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, that's that's a good one. Actually. You mentioned something interesting there. mentoring people. I reckon. That's, that's also something that you're that that's very natural for you, because you've worked in education, you've teached classes yourself, if I'm correct. And then you develop yourself on a career path to a director of technology eventually. But the mentoring, is it something that comes naturally? Is it something that people approach you for? Or do you search people out? To ask today like mentorship? How does that work for you? Stewart Lynch: Yeah, I never asked for it. In fact, it I wouldn't have even felt comfortable doing this until after I started doing my my YouTube channel. That was back in January of 2020. Yeah, because up until that point, you know, I guess I'd had 10 apps on the App Store. But I wouldn't have said that any one of those apps would have been ideal coding, because I'm a self directed learner and haven't had any formal training essentially, in in any modern day coding, and an ID. And the problem was, is I learned through tutorials or through Udemy courses, that more often than not, are people who are just trying to show you how to build an app. But the structure behind those is not good. It's not good. coding practices. So yeah, as I start to build my YouTube channel, the whole theme was for it was basically, to show people or giving people an idea of, and the theme was, I wish that I could I wish that I knew now what I knew, or I wish I knew then what I know now, yeah, you know what I mean? And so that was all these things that I had been doing wrong for the past six or so years. As I start to build up these tutorials, I realized no, this is wrong, there's a better way there's a more structured way of doing this. So that's how all of my tutorials are it's, I hope, our best practice and our building blocks for putting together applications in in a more structured, supportable, maintainable way. So after having done a year of those, I'm feeling pretty good about that. And I'm starting to now put together tutorials that are building out full application They're more structured and and they're not just single topic application or simple topic videos. And so and I'm answering questions on different YouTube or Facebook channels, and people are starting to reach out to me. And I guess some people are starting to realize how old I am. So the people that I mentoring are, are not young people, because young people take a look at me. And they think that I probably don't have anything to offer because I'm that old. And yet people who are closer to my age feel more comfortable asking me questions. And so there's a whole number of people now that are doing that. And some people, I'm working with them through their entire apps, and others are just to get them through a roadblock and showing them how to move forward. And I have no strict strict fee. It's I have this coffee account, and people pay me what they feel I'm worth and and I'm happy with that as long as it's not abused, so. Jeroen Leenarts: So well, just, let's put up a little mirror. So like in 1974, how would you how would you look at somebody of your current age back then? Stewart Lynch: I would have thought that they would have had nothing offered. I mean, even now when i i Look at I'm reading something or hearing something on the news, and I hear about how some somebody in their late 60s early 70s was got walking late at night and got hit by a car accident. I'm thinkable. What is that old guy doing on a street. And I don't it doesn't relate to me. I don't feel like I am that age. But I understand how someone who's younger, who would look at me, and that's why I never show my video of my face on my videos, because I think that that might be an immediate turnoff for some people when they when they see what I look like. So you see what I look like now. And it was only just you know, just recently yesterday, I guess I had a birthday yesterday where I basically announced my age. And I'm sure that that shocked the hell out of a lot of people. Even though my avatar shows a bald headed guy is obviously old. They don't think people quite realize all I am. Jeroen Leenarts: Why you look young, right? Yeah. So I'm just looking a bit at the timeline. 2014 you got into iOS development, January 2020, is when you started your YouTube channel. In the meantime, you develop 10 apps, at least that's the number you mentioned. So in in those six years, we're just casually developing your expertise on iOS development, or was it more like goal oriented? Because 10 apps is probably a lot more than many other people will have developed in the same timespan, I think. Stewart Lynch: Yeah, they're all ideas of things that I wanted for myself. Yeah. You know, like I, I drink a lot of wine and have a lot of wine in my cellar. So I wanted something to manage my wine cellar. So I build an app. I like to golf. So I and I have an Apple Watch. So I want to deal to track my my golf scores over time at different courses. And I didn't want to have to use a scorecard. So I went to use my watch. So I built an app for that. I do a lot of reading. So I wanted to track all the books that I read. And I wanted to be able to scan the Google database for barcodes for the existing books. So I develop an app for that. So everything that I did, there may have been an app out there, but I thought okay, I mean, you know, I don't mind paying for apps, but to give me something myself something to do to keep me out of my wife's here. I wanted to start doing so. Everything, all of my apps are all things that I use because I found that had a need for them. Jeroen Leenarts: So do you mentioned your wife? What what does she think of you recording videos posting on YouTube? Like being an influencer so to speak? Stewart Lynch: I wouldn't go there for Jeroen Leenarts: you know, Chick talk, right? No, no. Stewart Lynch: But she's not. She doesn't. You know, she'll know she won't even listen to this, this podcast. So she won't even know what I say about her. But she's not particularly technically inclined. So you know, I She's a gardener, so she loves to be in the garden. So she keeps busy doing that. I keep busy doing this. And you know, I love her very much. But we lead pretty separate lives during the during the day as I'm sort of always sitting here in my office doing coding or doing a video or something and she's doing her thing. Jeroen Leenarts: Well, it's it's good to, to have like your own thing and have a shared life at the same time. Absolutely. I think everybody who's in a relationship, at some length will come to the realization that you are two individuals who are doing their own things, but who choose to share certain aspects of their life together. That's it So of those 10 apps, was there any that you would say that it was like, a big success? A big runway success? Is there anything? Or was it like more like stuff that you create for yourself? And it's, of course, fine, that it's it's nothing like chart topping material. But was there anything of those 10 apps that was that that stood out from the rest of the things that you created? In the sense of success rate? Stewart Lynch: Yeah, I mean, you know, that I don't do any advertising. So you know, it's a real myth that, that you can make a lot of money building apps, especially unless you really have something that's quite unique. Yeah, but three of my apps are giving me some revenue. And those are the the, the wine cellar, the bookshelf and the scorecard, one because there's a large number of people who would have an interest in that. And if they Search the app store there for wine, or golf or, or books, they're likely going to come across my app. And they're not subscription based their one time purchases. So they're, you know, they do and, and they're, they're free, basically, with an in app purchase, so people get a chance to try them out. So you know, there's a number, quite a number of people that are purchasing that, and I'm dating them quite regularly. I think some of my other apps are better in terms of, of interest, but they're just never discovered. So you just sit there, and I still use them. But that wasn't Yeah, but Jeroen Leenarts: it's your own. Ah, and you scratch that one, and you keep them updated for new devices? Yeah. Um, so that's quite interesting, really, because you're really in software development, just purely for the enjoyment. And what you see what a lot of people that have to do this professionally, to make their income that they they have sometimes struggle due to the pressure that it might bring. But you're not bothered by that in any shape, or form, it seems, is that correct? Stewart Lynch: That's right. And it also allows me to explore a large number of topics, like you, as a professional, and others have side projects, if you one of my apps or side projects, Jeroen Leenarts: your whole life is a side project. Stewart Lynch: Exactly. And that's the that's the beauty of this. And you know, my YouTube videos do it's whatever comes across my mind, I've got, I think, in my five right now, because I only release one a week is if you release all of them at once, then you have this dead period where you know that you don't do anything. So I try and build the whole number up. And that'll give me a couple of weeks to try and explore something else. But in all, you know, I think I released this video yesterday on generics. And I had done that maybe five or six weeks ago. But other ones had come in between then I thought, Oh, this is really important, or this is really interesting. Let me release this one first. Because I thought generics is kind of dull. Well, it turns out, that's been the most popular video that I put out a long time. So I'm not a very good judge of what are going to be popular videos. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, it's also with my Wittner podcast recording, sometimes you release something you're like, I don't know. And then you look at your stats, and you're like, Okay, this, this this land and a lot better than I expected, then, which is always cool. But I'm not podcasting for like, getting like tons of listeners, it's just strictly for the enjoyment and the opportunity to actually just speak with people who otherwise wouldn't have talked to. Stewart Lynch: And I really love them, by the way, I've listened to every one of them. And, yeah, I mean, I do a lot of walking. So these are my my walk podcasts. And it's great listening to everybody. And he build an identity with somebody, you know, so that when you see them on Twitter, you know exactly who they are. And you've you've had Malin and Kai on who were two people from Vancouver, because that's where I am. Yeah, they live in Vancouver now. So I mean, I've never met her, although we've communicated back and forth on Twitter. I feel like I do know her. Oh, boy. I don't know. Yeah, Jeroen Leenarts: yeah, it's and I must say that because I started podcasting in October 2020. And it really has like accelerated the the rates of people that get added to my network and just just familiarity with people that I wouldn't have known otherwise. And it's just a great feeling so that if there's something on a specific topic, there's a lot more people that I know that I can reach out to and just ask like, Hey, what are your thoughts on a specific area? I'm talking about YouTube channels. Why did you get started with YouTube videos? Because it's something that you started in January 2020. But But what was the reason for you to actually start Recording material and, and presenting it to the world really? Stewart Lynch: Well, I had, I actually had them a large number of YouTube videos. That was one of the things that I did for this this company. So they had their own channel and I did every one of the videos that were product videos, so I had some comfortable, you know, I was familiar and comfortable with with putting out videos. Yeah, but I'm a teacher at heart. And I like to be able to share knowledge and but I only want to be able to share that if I think that I have something to offer that is valuable and, and good content. So I put up my first one that was on Swift package manager, because I thought that was a good topic. It got a few nice reviews. And after that it just, I just kept on going. And yeah, I just thought that I had something to offer. Jeroen Leenarts: So in what in what way? Are the iOS development videos different? Compared to the product based videos that you did before? Of course, you're not talking about a specific product. But yeah, is there a clear difference that are in other areas? Stewart Lynch: Not so much instructor because they're always, this is what I'm going to show you. And and here's how you start. And here's how you go. So whether or not I'm showing you how to use a particular aspect of a product, or if I'm showing you how to do something in coding, I approach it the same way. There needs to be a reason to be able to do this. So let's go ahead and show you the benefits of doing this or this is the way you would do it because it's more efficient. And so there isn't an awful difference between a product video and my the way that I present things, or a concept video. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay, cool. And while most people that are familiar with your name, they know you through your YouTube videos, I guess, what might be one thing that people don't know about you that you've never shared before? Is there anything that you can share in that regard? Because I'm seeing you on video, I'm seeing a piano in the background and something that resembles chess sheet music. Stewart Lynch: Well, that was a, you know, no, I wouldn't call myself a pianist. But especially when I had a number of Xcode builds it, were taking a fair amount of time, I had always just swing material around and start to tinker on the piano. Now, since having said that, though, that since I started to put out YouTube videos, my time on the piano has been reduced an awful lot. But that was just another thing that I thought that I would do when I retired was was teach myself how to play piano actually, it goes back further than that. When I went through my first divorce. That's when I bought my first piano and started to learn that and then I met my my new wife. So piano came secondary after that. So piano was something that I always like to come back to because I've Music has always been in my life. I played the saxophone, flute, clarinet. Yeah. always enjoyed music. I just enjoy learning. Yeah, I think that's the key thing. And so I'm very active in in doing long hikes and walks and biking, just trying to stay fit and stay alive. Because I think there's a lot more to do Jeroen Leenarts: here because hiking you you go out for a walk a long walk actually, three or four times each week, if I'm correct. Stewart Lynch: Yeah. Well, I do. Probably eight to 10k walks, maybe five times a week. So Jeroen Leenarts: yeah, that's you cover some distance each week if you do that. And, um, let's see. Because we've we've mentioned golf, you've mentioned that you had a wine cellar. You mentioned a little bit about piano. Music is something that is important in your life. What is your idea of people who are your age, when you were back in 1969 that are just getting started? What is one of the best things that you can share with people based on the decades of professional experience that you had as an individual? Stewart Lynch: Yeah, I think just as to stay involved. I think that's the key is, and I've got a lot of good friends who are are like minded as me. So yeah. And these, these are friends that go back to my high school base. So we're, we get together, we do things on a regular basis and relive our childhood and I think it was different because I grew up in the in the 60s and when I was that age, you know, I mean my my father didn't live as long as I have but you know People my age now when I was young, they were old. Yeah. Whereas people my age now, for the most part, at least the people that I know and then that I come around with, they're not old. Yeah. And we still I still have it just seems like yesterday that it was back in the early 70s When I was going to Hawaii every summer and hanging out in the beaches of Hawaii. And I still see myself as that person. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, cuz I remember a picture that I've seen a few of you had like long hair brown. Yeah. And on Hawaii, so you must have eaten either paddleboarding or surfing or something as well as occasionally. Because what else would you do on a tropical island? So far out in the Pacific? Um, so is there anything that we that we missed or anything that you think we should really touch upon that specific area as well? Before we start closing out and just be on our merry way? Again? Stewart Lynch: No, no, you know, I, I, you know, I just struggled with, with getting, you know, increasing my own as I'm sure you do with your podcasts of increasing your your viewership, I suppose. Yeah. And I know that, you know, my target audience is, is people who aren't necessarily beginners. Yeah, but people who are not because I don't have a lot of interest or experienced developers, I think it'd be interesting to talk to Yordy about what he sees in my videos, because I think he's an experienced developer. And, you know, I'm always surprised when I get comments by people who are, are in the business as professionals comment in giving me good comments on my videos, because I'm thinking, wow, you know, how can I have something to offer for you? And so, yeah, I wish that I could, I mean, I've got about 4000 subscribers on on YouTube now, which is just a drop in the bucket compared to people like Shawn Allen, or Christian and things like that. But yeah, I don't know how to get the word out to spread the my knowledge and whether or not it is useful for a larger number of people. So I'm always looking for positive reinforcement of what I'm doing is worth the time. And if I keep on getting that positive encouragement, then I'll keep on putting out the videos. If it's not of interest, anybody, then I'll move on to something else, I guess. Jeroen Leenarts: No, I think the most important thing is being able to enjoy what you're doing. Because that's also with with me for podcasting. I do look a little bit at the numbers. But I also know that a podcast compared to a YouTube channel as way different numbers and audience sizes comparatively. Because apparently, with the listenership that I'm getting with my podcasts, I mean, a top 25%, which sounds like a lot. But that's like that, that's somewhere, if you're close to 200 downloads for each single episode in seven days, then then you're already up that high. But that also shows how big the pool is that you're actually swimming in. So there's a lot more people who are getting a lot smaller numbers comparatively. And I do think that if you have 4000 subscribers on the YouTube channel, I really like the concept of that you only need like 1000 True followers, to be able to do something that is sustainable, and crispy Sally is a really nice example of that with this new hongo app. He has like about a little bit over 1000 paying subscribers to his product, and there is some churn, so there's always new people coming in people going out. But that number that he's having, he's able to just derive an income from that, so that he's able to just live off of that income, at least he can add his share of the monthly income of his household. And he's having a good life, in part due to the success. And it's also what is your definition of success and what's really hard, especially nowadays, people always look up to these, these really big celebrities or people with millions of followers and you shouldn't compare yourself with that because you had those are outliers really. And, and what's much more interesting is just just to compare yourself within your peer group, so to speak. So what you mentioned Shawn Allen, who's doing great with with his videos, but how long have you been doing videos on The topic that is, because you're only doing it for like a year now, and having like 4000 subscribers within a year, if I would be able to reach that in the podcast, I would be like, madly excited, so to speak. Yeah. So that's it's always really hard to see and find out what you're comparing yourself with. And if there's anybody listening, who has some thoughts on that, please reach out to stay with me on Twitter, because we're both really curious to, to find out what other people think on this specific area. Stewart Lynch: Yeah, always and also just in, because I subscribe to an awful lot of newsletters, and in a number of them always sort of highlight different people's videos. And it's seldom that I ever get mentioned in these videos, yet the ones the videos that they're mentioning, you know, I've done that particular topic. And I think I've probably done a pretty good job on that topic as well. And so there's always envy, obviously, yeah, because people are getting that recognition, Jeroen Leenarts: by a little bit of envy is healthy as a motivator. But as long as it's not blinding, so to speak. Stewart Lynch: Yeah. But in the end, you know, it really doesn't matter. Because I don't really need to do this. And I'm doing it because I like to do it. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, I think that's, that's one of the best places you can actually be just doing the things that you enjoy. And I think even people working professionally, should try and do that, within reason as much as possible to reach the same goal. I think, just do what you enjoy doing. And yeah, and with that, Stuart, if there's nothing more that we can add at this point in time, I'd really want to thank you for your time. And yeah, we'll probably get back to this in a couple months. And then we'll have much more to talk about, I reckon. Because there's so much happening in the world of Swift and software development at the moment, and also in podcasts right now with the recent announcements by Apple. And I look forward to see where your channel is at in like, say a year from now. So January 2022. Who knows? Maybe 8k subscribers? That will be nice, I think. Yeah, I will double the numbers. So thank you for your time. And I hope to talk to you Stewart Lynch: again in the future. Right. And the St. Louis, you're ready for Jeroen Leenarts: me? I'll definitely do that because I will be talking to God in about 15 minutes from now. All right. Stewart Lynch: Well, thanks very much for having me on.