Jonathan Ruiz, podcaster and iOS App Developer.

Jeroen Leenarts: So, Hi, and welcome to another special edition of my podcast. I'm sitting here with Jonathan Lewis. He's in the US, and he has his own podcast as well, Everyday Robots. It's on a bit of a hiatus right now. Probably we're gonna talk a little bit about that as well. But first of all, Jonathan, welcome to my podcast. And it's a joy to have you here, because you're one of the guests that I had on my shortlist to ever had on my podcast at some point. So thank you very much. How are you today? Jonathan Ruiz: Absolutely. Thank you, Ron, I appreciate you having me. And I'm really excited to be here. And we'll definitely talk about Everyday Robots. And I'm sure a lot of other fun things. And yeah, thanks for having me. I appreciate it. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay, and people who don't know you online, on Twitter, what are some typical things that you that you work on things that you should be known for, or that you're proud of? Jonathan Ruiz: Yeah. So I, I definitely, always thinking of myself as a developer, it has been a little bit of a minute since I've published any new projects. My main app, which honestly hasn't gotten a lot of love with a little bit is called Lockner. And that whole app, I released and it was the intention for me to ship an app that I wanted for myself, where you want to take a great photo for your lock screen or your home screen, and you want any guesses. So you can just frame your shot. You know, if it's your dog, or you and your significant other, you can take a good photo. And, you know, take as many as you like, because I would always want to change up my lock screen quite a bit. And I was, you know, tired of trying to guess how I else would format it. So I shipped that. Luckily, it got a little bit of media attention. And I was able to get some press from it from nine to five Mac and others. And then my most other my other recent project was Everyday Robots. And that's a podcast that I host with a dear friend of mine Mark Ronson. And it is on a little bit of a hiatus, but it's just because I think like other independent podcasters that it's all, you know, just me and him and I've edited every episode and I have changed jobs recently. So because I'm not a professional developer, day to day, otherwise, it'd be a little easier for me to schedule and do everything. So it'll I'm sure it'll come back. I'm trying to work on that right now. And yes, the have a big back catalogue. I believe we were we published our last episode on in September, and that was episode 104, I believe, yeah. 104. So, so yeah, that's that's me. You know, have my app development stuff and and the podcast. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, this guest you meet the mentioned a big part of your of your story there. That your main activity during the day is something besides software development. But why have app development and as a side hustle as a hobby? Why are you doing that? What what's the what's the drive for you? Jonathan Ruiz: You know, for me, the drive is just wanting to be like all the developers that I've always looked up to, you know, like David Smith, Mark Harmon, you know, some of the newer devs to like Sawyer, like the person behind Naja, or, I mean, there's so many great apps that come out and the way you can make an impact on the world and just ship something and make something awesome. And anybody can download. It has always just fascinated me and made me want to be a part of that world. And so that's what really was the the catalyst to become an iOS developer and to start learning Xcode, and I have, you know, went to college and I got a business degree, but I didn't start coding till after that. And it was, until I, you know, saw swift and started getting, you know, more familiar with that stuff. And the syntax of seemed much more approachable. So that's kind of when I was diving in, probably around 2016 was when I started really looking at it. Jeroen Leenarts: And do you have to have some sort of end goal in mind when you're working on your developer activities? Jonathan Ruiz: Yeah, definitely. So my my end goal is to eventually I guess, kind of going back to before, end up like, you know, someone like Mark Arman or someone I thought were there, you know, maybe working as a developer as their day job and then having their own side projects as well. And then maybe a podcaster, too, just because especially nowadays, I really do think that connecting with people online is forever going to be the easiest way for our community to get to know each other to interact with each other, because you know, WWDC from 2019, hopefully, it comes back to in person been very fortunate enough to go to a couple. And for me, it was just something were living in Los Angeles, I felt, you know, it, there's no way I can't go, you know, I would, you know, save up for hotel and plane ticket and try to, you know, surround myself with, you know, developers and meet people and make friends. And, you know, a big part of Everyday Robots and other things like that, is just to continue to interact with the community and and get to know people that way. Just because right now, it's the norm. And, you know, hopefully, we have in person events again, but I think that's really important to be able to meet other people and just hang out, you know, just like we're doing right now, Jeroen Leenarts: it is true that what you're saying there that the internet makes magical things possible already, because, as you mentioned, you're in Los Angeles, I'm somewhat at the other end of the world, looking from that position, because I'm in the Netherlands. And yeah, it is interesting to see that you you have some thoughts on wanting to become a software developer, but like 100% of your time, it seems. But what are some of the biggest challenges that you're running into in that regard? Because I can imagine just getting started with a with a business degree and not having any clue what code is that that's your starting point? How the hell do you do that? Jonathan Ruiz: In You know, it's, it's going back to, to that desire. When I was building Lochner, it was the first time that I really challenged myself because there was a lot of false starts. I mean, I remember getting some hacking with Swift books. And the jargon just totally went over my head. You know, like you said, I had a business degree, I hadn't had any computer science classes, nothing. And, you know, rather than, you know, giving up just, you know, reading the bucks, I was just like, okay, you know, I can't learn this way right now. Like, how do I learn, and at the time, Swift Playgrounds was just coming out. And that was like, the perfect thing to segue me into some of those other books and just learning swift in the language. Because that was just kind of how it clicked, in my mind. And from there, you know, I think it's not talked about too much anymore. But I found sites like Treehouse, and other things like that, and started doing their courses. And, you know, it's just about finding what approach works for you and going with that, and if you have that desire to learn the language, and just, if you wanted to, you know, really be a developer, you're going to go through any hoop that you can, so that way you can get to the end result of shipping the app or being that person. And I'm probably being really scatterbrained about this, some thinking about it. But, you know, I, I really, it took me a while to get to a point where I was able to start, you know, shipping apps or just making my own things. But once I'm at that point, it's really like a milestone to becoming the developer where you do know, a certain amount of knowledge, you're never going to know everything. But at that point, you can start that journey. And at least to me, the, I think the most important thing is, I know, that's the path I want for myself. So even if I can only spend so much time during my week, you know, just because time is you know, it's so hard to find time for myself right now to to work on like side projects and stuff. But I try to make time and at least now I feel like I'm at a point where even though I only have like an hour in the day or like a couple hours, I can start making meaningful progress. Because I had gotten over that hump of not knowing anything and being scared or opening Xcode to actually being very comfortable with the app and and just letting you know your ideas, turn into apps or different things and stuff like that. Jeroen Leenarts: Okay. And from what I understood, you have two apps currently in the app store, right? Yeah. And, but how many projects that you start at some point? Just a rough estimate? Jonathan Ruiz: Um, gosh, quite a bit. I mean, I think I, I don't know, I imagine many other developers have this feeling to where you get different books or different tutorials, and you have, you know, a whole, you know, folder and on your Mac, where you have different like, prototypes, or like, half finished projects, or maybe not even half finished, but you're learning different frameworks are learning different things. And, I mean, so many things that are just for learning purposes. But the, the two that you're talking about one of them, I mostly think of like a proof of concept. And I was, you know, happy to release because it was just fun. And it's, it's called visored. And it essentially is like a Instagram, you know, filter app, or like a Snapchat filter app, where you're using AR kit, and you're just putting these different filters, as masks and things like that. And that was when I was reading through Ray Wonderlic, Aerbook. Erica book, and just looking through some of the different projects and just continuing to modify them. And that was before I had shipped lagna. And that was one of the first projects I really shipped. And so that was just, you know, really fun. It was one of those things where I think even still today, there's not as many resources, as I would have thought to figure out how to create different 3d images, a lot of times those tutorials focus more on the code itself, and how to work with that, but not so much, you know, creating those 3d objects yourself. And it's interesting, like, I know, Apple just ship their new MacBook Pros, and everyone's, you know, geeking out over them. And they're, they're awesome. And I think it's really interesting, because seeing how much of those products is focused on the amount of GPU options and that kind of performance there. I think it's one of those open secrets. And just, at least to me, like, a super just a big signal that, you know, while all those things on that machine, maybe doesn't get the attention now, when developers start seeing, you know, whatever Apple's AR glasses project is or like VR project is, I know that it seems like they have way more headroom than they need. But I feel like that's one of those things that is going to be more looked at and more analyzed in future reviews for Macbooks, then maybe even like CPUs, CPU usage, because we're I think we're all going to be going from, you know, creating a lot of 2d assets to creating a lot of 3d assets, and really needing those GPU cores and those machines and anything that they make in the future. So I was think to myself, like, I need to get back to working on your kit and all this stuff, because it's going to be so essential. But that was like that first main project that I that I shipped, so anybody can download, and I put all my apps for free now. So even if you wanted to get locked now, you can just download it for free. And just have fun. Jeroen Leenarts: And what's your thinking behind shipping the apps for free? Because you spend a lot of time and energy in creating them, I guess. Jonathan Ruiz: Yeah, you know, for that one. Actually, both of them I initially shipped with being a paid up front app, and you know, kind of looking at everything. I think with Lochner I thought it had more more legs of you know, maybe this could be something that is really you know, has has a bit of a roadmap where I can keep adding, you know, this feature and that feature and after, you know, I think a lot of like a lot of developers know once you get through that first launch period or that first month the like the Attention and the sales kind of kind of trickle down a little bit. And I think it kind of goes to what I was saying before was, in a sense, the apps themselves, like, I definitely think that you know, maybe I'm missing an opportunity of not having them for, you know, a purchase price, but I haven't had time or you know, haven't been dedicated to, to updating them very frequently. And that kind of just led me to, to have them as more of a I don't wanna say resume, but just something that people can know me for, and something that I'm not necessarily, you know, seeking to just base all my income off, because that's not the goal of them right now. But it's more in the future. You know, it's more Jeroen Leenarts: like having a presence on the app store and just staking your turf there. And this is me, and I'm able to develop this stuff. Yes. But it does sound that in the grand scheme of things, as you already mentioned, you have this goal to, at some point, make a switch. But in your mind, what are the things that you think needs to happen for you to be able to make the big switch, so to speak, because I've had other people on my podcast before who were on a similar journey, I think, as you were, and one of them actually was able to, to make the switch. He was he was a cook before. And now he's, he's a full time iOS developer, which was, which was awesome to hear. But is that also something that you envision for yourself? Or how should I view you as, as a software developer? Working towards some goal? Jonathan Ruiz: Yeah, no, that's a great question. And that's something I think about a lot. And around the time when Lochner came out, and it had some attention and everything, I definitely drummed up the courage to start, you know, applying to different places, and, you know, starting to get those first interviews, and that was very important for me, just because, you know, I needed that practice. I hadn't. I mean, there's so much. There was so much doubt in my mind, even sometimes now, where I felt like, you know, doing this all on my own, like, how do I know when it's right for me to stop, just do my own apps, and just really putting myself out there to say, you know, I am ready to be a junior developer, I'm ready to be, you know, part of, you know, professional software developer. And those interviews and everything. I mean, it didn't pan out, but at the same time, I learned quite a bit. And it's something where, I think kind of going back to before I see this, as, you know, my career, so I won't get discouraged, you know, based on, you know, this No, or that, no, because I see this as something I want to do for the foreseeable future. And as long as I can, you know, continue to make ops and do that, that makes me happy. That's what I want to do. And so my mind's been focused to kind of get back to your question on my mind has been focused basically on working on more projects, continuing to update projects, just because like the apps I have right now, I haven't updated it and I probably should be. But at least for my mind, right now, I'm just kind of where I want to go I want to do other things. So mentally, my mind is at, you know, shipping in another project and having it be a little bit more, having a little more staying power as a maybe like a utility or something that I can continuously update and then once I come back, once that comes out, I hopefully envisioned myself as using that and using the other axes that transition into getting in going out and looking for you know, that that junior role, basically Jeroen Leenarts: so yeah, that's that's a lot of big goals, but I able to define small steps to be able to keep on doing something every time you have some time available to spend on software development, or Is it? Is it sometimes a little bit? Much? And that you think like, Okay, where do I actually start today? Jonathan Ruiz: You know, it's, I'll be honest, I feel like most developers end up getting into development because they have that idea first. And that was never my, my journey or my path. I always wanted to be a developer, because I, you know, admired the developers that I kind of followed on Twitter or listened to on podcasts. And it wasn't until like, you know, years into coding that I initially came up with the idea for lagna. And admittedly, it's kind of hard for me to like, come up with that ideas. And I feel like I'm getting better at it now. But I think once you, once you have that idea, or you have that certain project to work on, and it's way easier to motivate yourself to code or to find time or to say, you know, today I'm going to work on this feature set, rather than, you know, just trying to schedule time, but not necessarily have a specific project in mind. Jeroen Leenarts: That's it's, I know, it can be daunting to keep going. And I've actually already mentioned getting app IDs is it's probably one of the one of the toughest things to be able to, to do. Actually, I know someone on my, on my Twitter timeline, who has no issues at all, it seems with coming up with all kinds of crazy ideas. That's Jordi Brown, actually. And those people, yes, it seems like he's coming up with a new idea, like every two or three weeks, it seems. But I do know myself, because I've been doing software development for a while now and just coming up with original ideas to just create something. And that stuff. And I know, that's probably next to just basic language understanding, you know, just that you can that you know, your way around Xcode, and that you can actually create something, if you have an idea of what you want to create. That's, I think, one of the that's the that's the toughest thing to do next to that. And it does feel to me that it seems like the thing that's keeping you back right now is having that big app idea, it seems Is that Is that a correct assessment? Jonathan Ruiz: Yes, yes. And, you know, I was. So I was developing, you know, I was trying to develop different, like ideas for apps that have like a little more steam power. And I've, I've seen a few different ones that have come out now. Because, you know, if an idea is very good, multiple people are gonna have it. And, you know, I think it's one of those interesting things where it's almost like, a challenge of having the idea, and then also having the skill set to build it. And I think this is for developers have, you know, a junior level senior level, you know, there's always going to be projects that you want to build, but maybe you need like a whole team to do it, and you're just one person, or, you know, you can come up with the idea, but you may not necessarily have the skills right away, and then somebody else who does, you know, kind of beat you to the punch. And if we all just said, oh, you know, I'm not going to build this app, because somebody else did. No, there would be no apps in the App Store. You know, you definitely got to put your stamp on something. You know, like, I remember, Josh holds did his otter RSS reader. And it's that I mean, I think that's a good example, there's so many RSS readers, and you know, you have things like news wire, Bert Brent Simmons, but if you have a vision of what you want to do, I don't think you shouldn't necessarily let you know, other apps been out there stop you from from doing your own take on it. And I think you know, I think that's important, I think you have to be able to say like, you know, how can I put my take on this idea and have it be, you know, original enough where you can, you know, draw inspiration from others, but it's definitely not going to be copying and, you know, kind of moving forward a little bit. Jeroen Leenarts: Sounds like there's some some big challenges ahead still, but does sound like you have been working on getting the skill set to do the technical side of things. And now it's just getting Adding to that app ID and then just spending a lot of time on it, but then who knows what will happen? Just to switch gears a little bit, and the podcast Everyday Robots, as you already said, I think you're like 104 episodes in. And yeah, she also also said, it's, it's slowed down currently a little bit. Because while some other things are happening in your life, you switched careers, and you do a lot of things. And at some point, a day is over. And there's no time left to do a podcast recording anymore. Fortunately, today, you had some time. But why did you initially start Everyday Robots as podcast. Jonathan Ruiz: So I'm gonna, I'm gonna go way back. I love podcasts. And I have low podcast for some time, just because the medium and just being able to listen on demand and all the podcasts that I, you know, currently listened to have always wanted to participate in the world and to be in that world. And there was so many times where I thought to myself, you know, like, oh, I, I should start a podcast. And in my mind, I had made up that, you know, in order for it to be successful, I have to, you know, have a partner that is willing to, you know, record the show with me every week. So we can have a set schedule, our audience can, you know, rely on us and know when to expect a show? And, you know, I thought, you know, logistically, I guess base show was going to be, you know, too, too hard to pull off the way I wanted it to. And this was kind of the the catalyst for for making, you know, the show that I ended up making and back, way back when there was different events on Eventbrite that enabled me to meet my co host, Mark Ronson, who has become a really, really good friend of mine. And we met up in Santa Monica at this developer meetup for Swift, and there was a bunch of other people there. And it was, it was a really cool, like, meet and greet. We would, I think they had events, like once a month or so and, sadly, that that ended. But, you know, we got to hang out, exchanged numbers and just get to know each other. And then I thought to myself, you know, oh, I, you know, I found this really awesome person, I can, you know, start my podcast that I've always wanted to start. And so he, he, you know, agreed to be on the show with me. And I still remember recording that first episode, we were at his parents house, we were recording in person, and I had to learn how to edit podcasts. And I probably edited that first episode, like three times, just because there was a lot of like, across talk on the microphones, and we didn't know what we're doing. But we were still having fun. And so, we, you know, we created Everyday Robots, and we were recording every week. And it was just, I was having so much fun, I was learning a lot, I finally started to learn logic. And I just had in my mind, all the great shows that you know, relay FM does and as kind of like the North Star of like, how I want my show to be and how it should be presented, you know, with really good show notes, chapters, you know, different things like that. And then I slowly brought in the, you know, the guest space shows because I wanted it to be also that and it was really cool just because it let me kind of do the best of both where, you know, we have that weekly schedule, but then we're not limited to, you know, meeting new people and getting to, you know, interview awesome developers or people in the community. Jeroen Leenarts: abacus what are some of the biggest challenges for you to get started with podcasts? You mentioned already the editing a little bit with logic. But what are some of the rough edges and difficult things that you run into when basically learning how to do something that resembled the podcast? Jonathan Ruiz: Yeah, I think for me, the, the biggest barrier was figuring out the best way to kind of put together all the components, you know, how do I you know, how do I publish the episodes? You know, how do I You know, what, how do I best record it? What gear do I use, and I heavily relied on? You know, like, different things that I've heard, you know, in you know, just past podcasts I listen to or, you know, for, you know, putting shows together, we should probably use Mark Arman's forecast, you know, for chapters. Initially, I started with GarageBand. And I was learning that way before I went to logic. And then I realized, you know, oh, I need logic for chapters. And, you know, we initially started putting the pieces together. So, you know, going through Lipson for for hosting and stuff, and then, you know, having Audio Hijack to record and different things like that. And so once, like the technical challenges of that kind of went, I think it became a lot easier, because putting things like show notes together and other stuff like that, I feel like was more natural in the sense that I mean, I'm always naturally going to read MacRumors or nine to five and want to save different stories to talk about or want to chat about certain things. But once we got over that, I think once we got over that technical barrier of how do you edit? How do you best get used to the sound of your own voice? Because I saw that also took me a little bit of time to where I feel like I've gotten pretty comfortable with it now. But it definitely wasn't there at first. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah, I know what you're talking about. Because it was like, I think it's like a little over a year ago, I did my first podcast and I probably told it multiple times on my podcast already. But I started podcasting. Basically, on the premises that I did like a recording for a meetup group that I'm involved with, we had like a late cancellation and I stepped in to do a presentation. And it was also around the time that we had to switch to online activities because in person wasn't possible anymore due to Corona. And I felt so awkward doing that recording for that, that session, that afterwards, I was like, Okay, I need to do something about it. And as you I also like listening to podcasts, because I feel like in my, my podcast player, there's like a very long back catalogue that I have a very hard time cleaning up occasionally because I want to listen to this and that and this and that. But yeah, I just don't have the time at some point. And then I just decided, okay, I'll just try my hand at podcasting. But then when you once you do the first recording it's and you're here yourself it's like it's like horrible. It's it's it's the most difficult thing to hear about yourself and hear yourself fumble and doing all the ums and OS and and all the mistakes that you think that that are bad. But so in my case, the first episodes I did way too much editing, just cleaning up everything and just doing so much stuff that it was just like 10 minutes of of audio that would take like at least half an hour to edit if not longer. And yeah, that was said it was difficult. But it's I don't know if it's like you get used to it or that you like grow a tolerance. I don't know what it is. But at some point, it does start to feel better. hearing your own voice and I must say a little bit of audio sweetening also really helps with dealing with that issue. So yeah, you started after the robots basically with a with a new contact. Somebody who became a friend of you serious I was there to help. Let's not say the correct words because then people are scrambling for the phones once they're listening to this. But yeah, you started the podcast with somebody who you now consider to be a friend. And 104 episodes, that's a lot of audio content. And is it was it ever to your mind. Difficult to keep going except of course for finding the time to do it. Jonathan Ruiz: No, no, I It's funny I wanted I forgot to mention before. Sorry. I feel like I'm so scatterbrained and home talking right now. I I don't want to stop podcasting. I really, really enjoy it and I love meeting new people. I love assembling you know the show notes and putting together questions for the guests and meeting new people. That's just something that's in me. And the kind of like we were saying before the the day job I have now I don't work has, you know, in anything computers, I've never done that before and had just been a simple barista before. And now I sell shoes. And the job I have now it's very much all day. So it's, that's kind of what's halted the show. And unfortunately, he's like, had me just put on hiatus just trying to find time with, you know, personal life and work and just recording just because with the schedule I had before, it was much easier for me to find time in the afternoon or the morning and have a little bit more time for myself for the show. But, you know, I've been able to record with a lot of my podcasting heroes like I've had the privilege to record with, you know, Steven Hackett, Casey lists, you know, so many people that I really admired. And I think we mentioned Charlie Chapman, at some point, I spoke with him to like so many people, and I've never been afraid to, you know, ask to have people on the show, just because I want to, you know, meet more people and be more familiar with everyone in the community. And, you know, I've definitely tried to get voices that, you know, maybe haven't appeared in other shows. And I think that's really important and interesting, because, you know, there's so many people out there that maybe don't have a, as high as a profile of, you know, some of the bigger shows out there, but we're very interesting people. And, you know, I, I know it's on hiatus, but I don't want to stop that. And I think it's important to continue that. Jeroen Leenarts: So but just you mentioned something interesting there, because finding people to be part of your episodes. What's the process for you, you just get in touch with people or you reach out to them? Or come to Yeah, how does that work for you? Jonathan Ruiz: So for me, it's all been Twitter, really. It's interesting, the, the only social network app that's on my phone really anymore, is Twitter. And I've stopped, like, I've read a Facebook so long ago, I can't even remember but you know, I don't really use, you know, Reddit, or Instagram, or any of those other things. Like, the whole iOS community is, you know, headquartered in Twitter, it seems and so many people that I follow on their, you know, whoever I find that's, you know, interesting or has a good perspective, I try to give them a follow. And for any, pretty much anybody that I've had on the show have reached out through them on Twitter. And that's not exclusively like, sometimes I email somebody or something like that. But generally speaking, most of the time, when somebody comes onto my radar, it's finding them through Twitter, whether it's a post gone viral, or somebody I follow likes their posts, because sometimes Twitter surfaces that, but I just, you know, probably pay too much attention to Twitter anyways, but a lot of people that I find and have on the show is through there. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah. Yeah. It's also what I tend to, because sometimes it's just a matter of keeping an eye on your timeline and just responding to the right tweets occasionally. Actually, which was one of your tweets that, that got two of us involved in this episode. And then a couple of other people as well. So already recorded with Frank and I have something scheduled still. So awesome. That's, that's really nice. And what I do notice is that sometimes what I've noticed a lot this, there's a lot of people that I speak to, and then you discover that in some way they are connected, or they are familiar in ways that you think like oh, I haven't thought of that. And then in hindsight, you think yeah, obviously because they live in the in the same city, same general area, so they have seen each other on local meetups, or sometimes it's even at a went to the same conference and had a chat there. But yeah, just discovering how small the world really is with with with podcasting is very interesting. So just to give a little bit of backstory to you, so you already mentioned, you've you've have you have a business degree, and you have a high interest in in software development on the iOS platform. Yes. And you have a day job that is in retail, right? Yes. How do you find the time then? Because I know, retail is a profession that is quite time demanding, if you want to keep at it. But also you did a formal education like, some years ago, and what was your path then? Because why why not pursue something that aligns up with your, with your education was it like serendipity or just not a fit for you, once you hit the job market, or Jonathan Ruiz: so the job I have now is in sales and selling shoes and being in retail, and I actually very much enjoy the job. And it's, I'm very glad I found that when I did, because I was very much ready to move on. And I didn't expect it to take the time that it's taken from me. But I'm very much happy there. And so, as for like working on side projects, or even thinking about the podcast, it's kind of been the thing of staying up later, nowadays, just finding time in the evenings, you know, after, after dinner after spending time with my wife, just, you know, finding the time, maybe even starting from like 10 o'clock at night, you know, till till 12 or something like that and working on stuff. And that's kind of the routine I've settled into now. And in college. I graduated in 2016. And it was, it was starting to be clear to me at that point that I wanted to be in, you know, like computers and programming, specifically, because there is times when I've tried to like blog or, you know, to other things, because I wanted to have an impact and participate in the community, I would just, you know, think to myself, like, oh, how will I do it? You know, will I, you know, be a podcaster? Or will I, you know, be a blogger or, or do this and that. And since the podcast has slowed down, it made me want to look at blogging again, just because it's more of like a one person thing, and it's easier to, you know, publish thoughts and posts and stuff. But, yeah, I, my, my college degree was more of practicality and not not that I did enjoy it, then realizing what I wanted to do at the time. And honestly, I have no regrets. Because I I mean, I don't I can't speak from experience, because I didn't change the computer science. You know, I had thought about it for a second, but I was so far heard I didn't want to change. You know, I think it's, it's one of those things where, you know, if you are interested in Swift development and want to do that stuff, you can do it, you know, you don't need to change your major, you don't need to even be going to school, you could just do it. And that's something that I love about, you know, you know, any sort of programming or development, even if you want to be a web developer or something like that. And I tried doing some of that, you know, I think, because there are so many resources, and so many people are web developers, I think a lot of times when you see, you know, programmers or whatever, I think a lot of things kind of push you in that direction. But I really think one important thought and ideal that you know, anybody who's, you know, listening to this that is pondering, you know, getting into programming or doing anything. I personally, I believe it's extremely important to kind of think about it as what do you see your end result as because there's so many, you know, I roll my eyes so hard at different articles saying like, Oh, this is the most popular language and, you know, this is the most popular, like salary for this type of thing. And it's like, if looking at that is kind of making you pick a certain language or career. You're I mean, you know, you're probably just doing it for the money and not that that's necessarily like a bad thing entirely. But personally, I feel like that's the wrong approach. I personally, I think you should look at it, like, you know, oh, I want to be making apps for the iPhone. Okay, well pretty new to do that you need to learn Swift, you know, maybe even Objective C and start going down that path to what you eventually want to ship. If you want that, you know, you probably don't want to start learning like Python or something like that, you know, you gotta have a North Star and plan ahead, I think and, and start going through that path. And I know a lot of people like to say Swift is a really bad language to learn, for your first programming language, because of like, how typesafe it is, and everything. But, you know, I think you should really look at the end result of what you want to do. If you want to make websites then, you know, look at, you know, JavaScript, HTML, like CSS, like, look at all that stuff. But kind of find your Northstar first and then see how you get there afterwards. Jeroen Leenarts: Yeah. And that sounds like something that you're that you're working on, really. And that software development is for you, it's really a hobby, you you do it strictly for the enjoyment with like an end goal to maybe someday be able to make a living out of it. Which is, which can be a challenge, I think, especially timewise. And, yeah, I think if you can just keep going at it, like, every occasion, you have, like few hours here a few hours there, making sure that other things are covered and that your wife is happy, of course, because that's always helps if you supportive, essential. And that's the best thing you can do her there is if you want support from your family is just make sure that they're taken care of and that they're happy. Because then then you're allowed to have hobbies, and Jonathan Ruiz: programming and stuff aside, you know, all this is fun in it, it does bring us together, you know, you and me are talking right now. But really the most important things in life is, you know, the family and significant others you surround yourself with. Because at the end of the day, when we're all you know, old and just, you know being on our day, you want to spend that time with somebody that's awesome, and that you really appreciate. Jeroen Leenarts: I've seen some pictures, I think, at some point on your timeline that were very pretty have a very special day that you had the privilege to enjoy with your wife. So it's always good to see that people are aware that just doing the tech stuff is not the only thing that is important. Yeah, and with that, I think we're about hitting our our deadline for this evening. Oh, actually a few. And, yeah, is there anything that we forgot to talk about? or anything that you specifically want to mention? So that we didn't forget about that? Jonathan Ruiz: Um, no, I think we I think we covered quite a bit. And, again, I really, really appreciate you having me on as a guest. I was very excited when you asked me just because I've never been, I guess on any podcast and for anybody listening, I am always down to to record, we can set up a day. And then I know I said it held last time, but I always make time for things like this, I I really enjoy it. And you know, hoping to get my podcasts back up and running again, and doing all that stuff and participating more in the community just because I've very much missed it. And so anybody who wants to, you know, check out that show and listen to all the interviews because I you know, I feel like those episodes are very timeless. Definitely check it out Everyday Robots and any podcast app you want to listen to it in. And hopefully next time we talk, you know, I'll have a different app or project that I can promote. And I'm sure you'll leave links to my upstair and the show notes. And everyone, you know, go download them and have fun. They're free. And yeah, and anybody who wants to get in touch with me, my Twitter is at re factored with two Ds on Twitter. And it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much. I will Jeroen Leenarts: make sure to LinkedIn at Twitter handle as well, because a double D at the end. Do notice that it can trick people when they're entering it while recording. But I want to share that the link everything from the show notes because that's always a great place to put those things. And, Jonathan, I thank you for your time. It was great listening to you. And yeah, I really hope that that big goal that you're not star that that at some point, you're able to to grab it and you're basically making dreams come true when it comes to software development. Jonathan Ruiz: Thank you sir. I appreciate it.